{"database": "deposition_transcripts", "table": "segments", "is_view": false, "human_description_en": "where deposition_id = 6", "rows": [[8641, 6, 0, "Page 1", null, null, "COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C. DEPOSITION OF: WILLIAM P. BARR Monday, August 18, 2025 Washington, D.C. The interview in the above matter was held in room 2335, Rayburn House O\ufb03ce Building, commencing at 10:03 a.m. Present: Representatives Comer, Subramanyam, and Crockett."], [8642, 6, 1, "Page 2", null, null, "Appearances: For the COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM: , DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY , GENERAL COUNSEL , COUNSEL, OVERSIGHT , SENIOR ADVISOR , RESEARCH ASSISTANT , DIGITAL DIRECTOR , PROFESSIONAL STAFF MEMBER , MINORITY STAFF DIRECTOR , MINORITY FELLOW , MINORITY COUNSEL , MINORITY SENIOR COUNSEL , MINORITY COUNSEL , MINORITY FELLOW , MINORITY DEPUTY CHIEF OVERSIGHT COUNSEL"], [8643, 6, 2, "Page 3", null, null, "For THE WITNESS: ED O'CALLAGHAN Cahill Gordon & Reindel LLC 900 16th Street NW #500 Washington, D.C. 20006"], [8644, 6, 8, "Page 9", null, null, "Can the reporter please swear in the witness. The Reporter. Will you raise your right hand for me. Do you solemnly declare and a\ufb03rm under penalty of perjury that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? The Witness. Yes. Mr. Barr, do you have any more questions before we begin? The Witness. No. Thank you. My clock says 10:10. The majority hour will begin now. EXAMINATION BY : Q Very, very brie\ufb02y, we want to go through your background and the only two experiences that I think are relevant today. Where did you attend undergrad, and what year did you graduate? A Graduated Columbia College in 1971. I grad -- I got a master's from Columbia in 1973. I went to law school at GW here in Washington at night and graduated in 1977. Q Thank you. A During that time, I worked at CIA. Q And then President H.W. Bush appointed you to be United States Attorney General from 1991 to 1993. Is that correct? A Yes. I was in the Department at the start of his administration, and he ultimately appointed me Attorney General. Q And then President Trump appointed you Attorney General February 2019 through -- and then you left December 2020, correct? A Right. I was con\ufb01rmed in February 2019. Q Were you acting prior to your con\ufb01rmation? A No."], [8645, 6, 9, "Page 10", null, null, "Q Moving on to the topic at hand, just some preliminary questions, have you ever met Mr. Epstein? A Have I what? Q Have you ever met Je\ufb00rey Epstein? A Not to my knowledge. Q I'll pause for a minute. Ms. Crockett, do you mind identifying yourself for the record? Ms. Crockett. Yes. Jasmine Crockett, Texas-30. BY : Q And, then, have you ever met Ms. Ghislaine Maxwell? A Not to my knowledge. Q In general, is the Attorney General aware of every Federal criminal investigation that's happening at any given point? A No. Q What sort of cases would the Attorney General be made aware of? A Well, generally, things would percolate -- generally, people report into the Deputy Attorney General. Every morning I would have a sta\ufb00 meeting where the Deputy participated and his principal sta\ufb00 and my own sta\ufb00, and matters that had come -- that required my attention would come up through that system. Sometimes o\ufb03ces would directly communicate with me, especially when there was a con\ufb02ict, but matters would either come to my attention if there was a disagreement within the Department or if it was a matter of national importance. Q Did you or your sta\ufb00 closely monitor high-pro\ufb01le cases within the United States? A I think my sta\ufb00 monitored high-pro\ufb01le cases and brought things to my attention that they felt I should be aware of. Q And then, for the -- pretty much the remainder of the deposition, we'll focus on your"], [8646, 6, 10, "Page 11", null, null, "time as Attorney General in the \ufb01rst Trump administration. A Sure. Q Did you have any conversations about the Epstein case while you were Attorney General? A Any conversations? Q Yeah, just broadly. A Yes. Q Do you recall when the \ufb01rst one was? A I became -- at some point, and this was 6 years ago, but I became aware that the Southern District was conducting an investigation. I think it was a little bit before his arrest, but I can't be sure of that. It could've been around the time of his arrest, but I was aware that they were conducting an investigation. I don't recall speci\ufb01c discussions surrounding that. I could tell you what my understanding of what they were investigating, but I don't remember particular conversations. It's just my impression of what came up to me at that time. Q Can you describe your general understanding of what they were investigating? A So my understanding was that they were investigating whether he committed tra\ufb03cking o\ufb00enses, particularly focusing on his exploitation of young women, and they were trying to make that case against him. And, in that context, they were also looking as to whether any individuals were accomplices or complicit in that activity, either as facilitators -- as, you know, they ultimately went after and convicted Ghislaine Maxwell. And I think they were -- and I know they were also looking at whether there was evidence to charge anyone with participating in tra\ufb03cking by having involvement with the tra\ufb03cked victims. Q To the best that you can, can you describe the di\ufb00erence between what participating in the tra\ufb03cking would be and what facilitating the tra\ufb03cking would be? A Having -- well, the latter -- I mean, I'm sorry, participation as a -- would be having illicit"], [8647, 6, 11, "Page 12", null, null, "sex with a minor, a tra\ufb03cked minor. Q And facilitating -- A Or anyone who was tra\ufb03cking. Q Yeah. A But certainly what the focus was on was illicit sexual activity with a minor. Q And then what would facilitating be of, I believe, Ms. Maxwell was -- A Helping -- helping conscript young girls into Epstein's network of young girls who primarily were involved in giving him massages and engaged in sexual activity with him. Q And then you said you don't -- correct me if I'm wrong -- don't really recall more than the general conversations at that point in time? A Right. Q Do you recall who those conversations were with in -- or kind of surrounding the arrest of Epstein in 2019? A Yeah. It was either before -- it could've been before the arrest, but certainly, by the time of the arrest, I was aware of it, and it would've been -- it would've been the people who normally attend my meeting. It could've been a conversation with the U.S. attorney, but I don't remember if it was. Q Do you recall who normally attended those meetings? You might've said earlier, but -- A It would've been the Deputy and the Deputy's principal associate, as well as my chief of sta\ufb00, and sometimes additional members of the sta\ufb00. And it would also include, from time to time, you know, other people -- other members of the sta\ufb00 who were directly concerned with the matter. Q Do you recall any conversations with the FBI at that point in time -- still sticking to surrounding his arrest? A No. Q And then, you said might've included the U.S. attorney. Are you referring to the U.S."], [8648, 6, 12, "Page 13", null, null, "attorney for the Southern District of New York? A Geo\ufb00 Berman, yeah. Q Do you recall any conversations with anyone with the Southern District of Florida at that time? A I don't recall. Q And, then, do you recall any conversations with Mr. Alex Acosta at that time? A Not about -- not about this case. Q Not about Epstein? A Not about Epstein. Q Okay. He obviously served in the administration -- A Yes. Q -- with you, so in other cases. A Yes. Q I'm going to -- similar questions, di\ufb00erent timeframe and di\ufb00erent subject for Ms. Maxwell. Do you recall any conversations about Ms. -- the Maxwell case while you were Attorney General? A Yes. I can't pinpoint particular discussions. I think, once he committed suicide, you know, the o\ufb03ce -- I remember being told and agreeing that the o\ufb03ce had to go full bore ahead on \ufb01nding other crimes that may have been committed, including looking for people who were accomplices in some way or complicit in some way. And her name came up in that context, obviously, as the prime person they were -- Q And don't recall -- just to avoid the same list of people, but don't recall speci\ufb01c conversations with anybody regarding that case? A I may have had a conversation with Berman where he said in the wake of the suicide that he -- you know, that the o\ufb03ce was very much committed to continuing the case, getting to the"], [8649, 6, 13, "Page 14", null, null, "bottom of everything. Q Thank you. I'm going to -- A I would say, she went -- she disappeared, and there was this embarrassing period where they couldn't locate her. And, you know, at some point, I became aware that they were prepared to indict her and that they couldn't \ufb01nd her. So -- but, aside from that general information, I don't recall anything speci\ufb01c about that. Q I believe they eventually found her in like a cabin in Vermont or something? A New Hampshire. Q New Hampshire. Do you recall how they ended up \ufb01nding her? A No, I don't. Q I'm going to shift ahead in the timeline a little bit to Mr. Epstein's death while at MCC in Manhattan. So you previously stated that you personally reviewed the security footage from MCC from August 9, 2019, into the morning of August 10th. On -- we'll pull up what the Department has since released just so that you can view it, and I just want to ask you a \ufb01rst question. Does this look like the security footage that you would've reviewed at the time? A No, I can't remember speci\ufb01cally the security footage and what the composition of it was. I do recall that it showed the common area and a portion of the stairway up to Tier L. I think it's Tier L. Q Yes. So I'll ask some more speci\ufb01c questions, but this is the about 11 hours that the Department released this -- a month or so ago. And it's a -- we'll look at it schematically. It's a camera pointed towards the common area of the Special Housing Unit at MCC. The stairway on the left goes to a di\ufb00erent tier, and then you can see a very little bit of a stairway on the right that goes to Tier L. A Uh-huh."], [8650, 6, 14, "Page 15", null, null, "Q But you do -- A I really can't compare it because I can't really remember -- Q Yeah. A -- exactly what I saw. I remember -- what I remember about what I saw is that the resolution was good enough that I could see what the guards were up to -- the correctional o\ufb03cers were doing. I mean, not crystal clear, but I could tell that they were looking at computers and working on computers and so forth. So I remember that the resolution was pretty good, and it may have been -- it could've been an enhanced or an enlarged part of this. I just don't remember. Q And, to the best of your recollection, were there any anomalies in the tape that you reviewed, any missing minutes or anything like that? A Not that I'm aware of. I was told that it covered the period from the time he was put in his cell to the time he was discovered. I wasn't told of any missing minute and didn't notice any. Q Do you recall viewing other camera angles like a camera pointed down Tier L or a camera in the stairwell or anything? A I do remember other footage, looking at other footage as well, but I -- I think some may have been of hallways or entrances and things like that. Q Do -- the inspector general ended up reviewing Mr. Epstein's death, investigating -- A Yeah. Q -- Mr. Epstein's death. And they found that the camera pointed directly down L block was transmitting in real time but not recording to the DVR. Does that -- A Yeah. Q -- match your recollection? A That matches my recollection. Let me just say that, you know, the video came to me after, but a lot of information started coming to me immediately in the wake of his death, and I was getting a lot of information sort of real time, and including from the Bureau. And, as I found out"], [8651, 6, 15, "Page 16", null, null, "things, you know, I started reaching my conclusions. And this sort of came later in the process. Q Okay. A It wasn't the \ufb01rst thing I looked at. Q Yeah. I'll -- A I think it took some time of working to get whatever they were getting to me, so -- Q I'll try to cover as much as I can, but we'll start with the video. I'm going to go ahead and introduce what will be exhibit 3, just because I think it'll help in discussions. [Barr Majority Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identi\ufb01cation.] BY : Q And it is a map of the Special Housing Unit, the top tier of the Special Housing Unit at MCC -- A Thank you. Q -- with the cell. It's produced by CBS. A Yeah. Q And Mr. Epstein's cell is the one highlighted in red. And, just while we're looking at this and looking at the camera footage, the camera angle that we're looking at is that little alcove in kind of the center of the map. Mr. O'Callaghan. This is -- you're representing that, about -- that that's -- Yes, I am. Mr. O'Callaghan. Okay. And I can pull the CBS article. Mr. O'Callaghan. I just want to make sure he's looking at where you're pointing. So that camera is positioned right here."], [8652, 6, 16, "Page 17", null, null, "Mr. O'Callaghan. See, look at what is doing. That camera is positioned right here and pointed towards the common area. Mr. O'Callaghan. So, it's up here. The Witness. Okay. I'm glad you -- yeah, yeah. Mr. O'Callaghan. And that's his cell. The Witness. Yeah. Right. Mr. O'Callaghan. Okay. All right. I'm going to play 30ish seconds just so we can get our bearings on what the movings of the jail look like. [Video shown.] BY : Q So, just while this is playing, you see what appear to be corrections o\ufb03cers kind of walking around the common area going back to the desk. And then there's speci\ufb01c points I want to point out. So that corrections o\ufb03cer came from what appears to be a blind spot on the camera towards the right. And that inmate came from what appears to be a blind spot on the camera to the right. We can pause it. Just -- I understand we reviewed 15 seconds of footage, but based o\ufb00 that review, do you agree that a there is a bit of a blind spot on this camera blocked by the stair landing and that cell? A Yes. I'm going to shift ahead to the 9:20 mark. So I will preface this with this is 7:49 p.m. on August 9, 2019. And you can hit play. [Video shown.] So this video shows Mr. Epstein escorted from a -- escorted by a corrections"], [8653, 6, 17, "Page 18", null, null, "o\ufb03cer from making a phone call back to his cell in L block. So you can see him kind of go out of frame and go up those stairs to L block. Mr. O'Callaghan. Again, , you're representing that that's Epstein walking through? Yes. And -- Mr. O'Callaghan. You can't really tell -- -- so is the DOJ, IG, and the FBI. The Witness. I'm not going to challenge it. BY : Q Okay. And -- that was going to be my next -- is that your recollection of that scene as well, that, around 7:49, Mr. Epstein went to his cell for the evening? A That's my -- I can't say actually -- that's my recollection of events that I saw on the video, which is him being taken to his cell. That was 7:49 or whatever. Q And, then, again, understanding that we watched about 10 seconds of that walk from his phone call to his cell, but in addition to the blind spot of the camera kind of like o\ufb00 to the right, it's also a bit of a blind spot on the staircase up to L block. Would you agree? A On this video, you know, only a portion of the stairway is -- all the way up is re\ufb02ected, and my recollection was a portion of the stairway was re\ufb02ected on the video. Q That you reviewed as well? A Yes. Q Okay. Do you recall reviewing any video that showed that staircase in its entirety? A No. Q Do you recall reviewing any video that showed L block in its entirety? A No. Q So, going back to the diagram and understanding kind of, again, we reviewed all of 30 seconds of this footage, but I am representing that it's the 30 seconds that surround his"], [8654, 6, 18, "Page 19", null, null, "death -- or surround him going back to his cell, the blind spot also includes this door on the kind of center of this schematic, which is an entrance into the Special Housing Unit. And just asking, based o\ufb00 your experience and everything that you reviewed, looking at this, looking at the video, this -- the only video that is publicly available, is it possible for someone to get up to Mr. Epstein's cell while evading that camera? A I don't believe so. Q You don't believe so? A No. Q Even though part of the staircase is blocked and that entire doorway would be blocked? A Yes. I do not think it was physically possible for someone else to go up that stairway. Q And then -- A You -- Q At the time, you said that you believe no one entered L block between the time -- A Not just because of the camera though. Q Uh-huh. A Yeah. Q So what other evidence did you have to support the statement that no one entered L block between 7:50ish and -- A Okay. Well, I know we're starting with the video, but, for me, the video was the icing on the cake, okay. Q Okay. A So there was a lot of evidence about, you know, his state of mind and other physical evidence pointing to suicide and also testimonial and records pointing to this. But, in a nut -- but one aspect of this is that the SHU is itself physically isolated from the rest of the facility and that it only has two entranceways. The primary entranceway has to be opened remotely by central"], [8655, 6, 19, "Page 20", null, null, "control. So no one would have the key for it. And it was my understanding that that would leave a record of it being opened. So there was no way to come in that door except going through central control -- having it remotely opened. And then, second, the second door -- Q I'm sorry, just the primary door is the door in the center of the schematic that appears open in the picture. Is that the primary one? Mr. O'Callaghan. He's saying this one. The Witness. In the -- the one up here? Yes. Mr. O'Callaghan. Are you pointing to the black rectangular section? Yes. Mr. O'Callaghan. He's saying it's that. BY : Q Which one is the primary entrance into the SHU? A Well, I don't recognize the schematic, but from my recollection is the primary -- the primary exit is over on the right-hand side -- Q Okay. A -- here. And, if it's over here, then I would have to see a schematic. But my recollection is that you have to come up an elevator, and then you get into a room where you have to get through the control door that can only be opened centrally. And, then, if you -- once you get through that, you come through the door that immediately enters onto the SHU, and that requires a key. And my understanding was that the key to that was held by the o\ufb03cers inside the SHU, and they would have to come and let that person in. That's my understand -- that was my understanding. So I think it was not physically possible in the \ufb01rst instance -- well, in my opinion -- for"], [8656, 6, 20, "Page 21", null, null, "someone to come through there. But, otherwise, it was also my judgment that the video corroborated that because, number one, it showed the two o\ufb03cers who were in the SHU. The only ones in the SHU at the time did not leave their desk. So they didn't go to let anyone in. Q Uh-huh. A And, second, it was my judgment, from what I saw on the camera and what I looked at, I didn't think it was possible for someone to get up to the tier and open the door without being picked up in the camera, so -- Q Opening the door would also potentially make noise? A Oh, clearly. It's a big, heavy, steel door. Q Yeah. A Yeah. Q Thank you. And, then, did -- you said that the Central Command had to open one of the doors, and then a key -- A Yes. Q -- located at the guard desk had to open a second -- A Right. Q -- set of doors? A Right. Q Did you -- A And it was also that arrangement for the secondary entrance as well. Q Did you review the command logs -- A -- no, I didn't. Q Nobody entered? A I didn't review them, no."], [8657, 6, 21, "Page 22", null, null, "Q Oh, you didn't review the command logs. Are you aware of the -- A I didn't personally review them. I was aware that they had judged that it was not possible for someone to come in. Q Are you aware if anyone reviewed whether or not an entrance or exit was logged? A I believe the Bureau was looking at that intensively, the whole issue of whether this could've been anything other than a suicide. Q The -- are you referring to the Bureau of Prisons or the FBI? A I'm sorry; the FBI. Q Thank you. A And the IG. Q And they did an almost 4-year investigation into this, I think? A The IG did. Q Yeah. A The Bureau was much quicker. Q Now we're going to go back -- back in time based o\ufb00 the evidence that you reviewed. Around 6:30 a.m., on August 10th, the -- one of the -- I'm not sure their title, but the individual delivering breakfast to the inmates attempted to deliver breakfast to Mr. Epstein. He did not answer the door. He called the guards, and they found his body and began providing medical care. Does that sound correct to you, to the best of your recollection? A Yes. Q And then, about an hour later, he was pronounced dead at a hospital at New York Presbyterian, I believe, in New York. A I know he was pronounced dead at the hospital, yeah. Q When were you \ufb01rst informed of Mr. Epstein's death?"], [8658, 6, 22, "Page 23", null, null, "A It was Sunday morning. I was in my study at home, and I got a call from my chief of sta\ufb00 saying that -- that Epstein died from an apparent suicide. Q Do you recall about how close in time it was to the pronouncement of death? A I -- I don't recall. It was in the morning, I believe. Q And it's still your opinion today that Mr. Epstein died by suicide? A Absolutely. Q Before getting into kind of what the investigation looked like after that, what information was \ufb02owing to you, do you know, to the best of your knowledge, what are the policies and procedures in place to -- that were in place to ensure that Mr. Epstein didn't commit suicide? A Well, there had been an -- as you know, there had been an attempted suicide in July. And, based on that, they put him under suicide watch, which is the most intensive form of monitoring. And then he was taken o\ufb00 suicide watch, based on the psychologists at the MCC making the determination that he could be taken o\ufb00 that kind of intensive watch. I found out afterward that, you know, his lawyers had been pressing hard for him to be let out of suicide watch. And, in any event, he was put on the next level down, which was -- I forgot exactly the term used for it, but it required that he have a cell mate and he be checked every 30 minutes. Those were the -- in addition to, you know, the other general security systems in place, those were the two that applied directly to him that were supposed to prevent this. Q And on -- understanding suicide watch is very intensive, requires a lot of sta\ufb00 power, and on suicide watch, are they provided with clothes that don't tear and sheets that don't tear? A I believe that's the case. Q And then, as -- A I don't know. I can't -- I believe that they -- they're careful about the utensils, but I think eyeballs are on them 24/7. That's my understanding of it. Q And, then, when were you \ufb01rst provided with a more formal brie\ufb01ng regarding"], [8659, 6, 23, "Page 24", null, null, "Mr. Epstein's death? A I think it came virtually every day I found out more information. You know, I was obviously covering it very quickly and wanted to rule out anything other than suicide, and so pertinent information was \ufb02owing to me pretty consistently. Q And it was -- and -- A The FBI was conducting an investigation, and the Southern District was involved in that. And I -- the -- within an hour or minutes of \ufb01nding out about it, I directed the IG to have people in New York go to the scene and conduct an investigation -- start an investigation. Q And you've already said that, you know, you reviewed security camera footage. Obviously, there was a previous suicide attempt that probably had psychologist notes and things that were available to the FBI and BOP to review and the IG to review. Were there any other things that you reviewed speci\ufb01cally? A I've -- from time to time, I would -- I would review photographs when people were discussing things that were pertinent. I may have seen -- I think I may have been shown logs that were apparently, you know, erroneously \ufb01lled out by the corrections o\ufb03cers, things like that. The systems were explained to me from time to time. The BOP was also conducting their own investigation. So there was sort of three investigations going on at once. Q And it was kind of the culmination of all the information that was provided to you that led to the judgment that it was a suicide? A Yes. Well, over time, it became clearer and clearer to me that it was undoubtedly suicide. And. As I say, the video was probably the last thing that I looked at -- or, you know, in reaching that conclusion. Q Do you recall viewing any speci\ufb01c documents during that time period, like the coroner's report or -- A I did review the coroner's report."], [8660, 6, 24, "Page 25", null, null, "Q Did you -- I asked this, but did you review like entry and exit logs for the SHU? A I may have. I saw some records. I can't remember what they were. Q Okay. The chief medical examiner at the time stated after examination that Epstein died by, I believe it was described as kneeling hanging, so not jumping o\ufb00 the top bunk but using leverage to kind of lean forward. Does that \ufb01t your recollection? A I remember discussion of a kneeling hanging, but I -- I can't remember what posture he was in at the end. Q And -- A They found him with his buttocks facing the -- Q The ground. A -- the ground. So I'm not sure he was on his knees at that point. Q But you hadn't -- do you recall seeing any evidence that he jumped o\ufb00 the bunk or otherwise like fell -- A I think -- Q -- versus just kind of -- A No. I think the evidence was that he hung himself. And it was essentially close to the modus operandi that he had used before being put on watch, you know, the same nooses and coming o\ufb00 the top and landing. In that case, he landed on his knees apparently. It didn't work. Q Were you being kept apprised of the autopsy and its results in sort of real time? A No. Q Do you recall when -- A That's -- that was conducted by New York. Q Do you recall when you -- A Or the city, I think, maybe, but -- Q Do you recall when you \ufb01rst got briefed on the autopsy?"], [8661, 6, 25, "Page 26", null, null, "A Well, I heard about it pretty soon after it came out. Q And, at that point, it kind of con\ufb01rmed to you that the medical examiner ruled it a suicide? A Yes. And the fact that there were -- I mean, I think, not only that ruling but the fact that there was no sign of any struggle. I mean, he was a fairly large guy, and the idea that people would go in there and hang him in that way with numerous nooses being tied and so forth without any sign of a scu\ufb04e was not plausible. Q Yeah. I think I remember -- I don't remember which investigation it was in, but I remember reading like no, you know, skin or \ufb01bers under his \ufb01ngernails. A There was none. Q No, like, scratch marks, anything -- A No contusions. Q -- any kind of like defensive marks. A None. Q Is that similar to your -- A Yes. Q -- recollection? A Yes. Q The -- I believe Mr. Epstein's brother hired an expert medical witness to rereview the autopsy and -- A Right. Q -- the examiner's report, named Dr. Michael Baden. Are you -- A Yes. I'd see him occasionally on TV. I've seen him. He frequently comes into these kinds of situations. Q I believe he was described as an expert medical witness in high-pro\ufb01le cases, so --"], [8662, 6, 26, "Page 27", null, null, "A Uh-huh. Q -- take with that what you will. A Yes. Q But do you recall Dr. Baden being involved at the time? A I remember just reading news coverage -- well, he came in after, I believe, after the autopsy, reached his conclusions, and he o\ufb00ered another view of it. And I remember press reports to that e\ufb00ect. Q He -- his view, which is contrary to the medical examiner's, and, again, I will say that he is an expert medical witness not a medical examiner, but that Epstein had fractures to his larynx, and I believe it was three fractures -- three di\ufb00erent fractures to his hyoid bone in his neck, and that was described as extremely unusual in suicidal hangs and more consistent with homicidal strangulation. Do you recall any conversations about Mr. Baden's report within the Department or with the FBI? A I remember conversations about it, commenting on it. Q Did anyone agree with Mr. -- Dr. Baden's \ufb01nding? A No. I mean, no one expressed agreement during any of my conversations. Q No one expressed disagreement to you. Did -- understanding evidence was -- and information was \ufb02owing really quickly, did you ever see any evidence that suggested Mr. Epstein's death was a homicide? A No. On the contrary, I think, when you look at the cumulation of all the evidence, including the testimony of individuals, his state of mind, you know, the whole thing, the processes, you know, one of the things that impressed me was that it would have required -- it would have required people -- it wasn't known until 8 o'clock that morning, I believe, that his cellmate was gone, and it wasn't even clear during the day whether he'd get a replacement. So there wasn't much time for people to understand that he was going to be by himself, very, very little time. And this would've required coordination from probably two dozen people maybe"], [8663, 6, 27, "Page 28", null, null, "within the prison. And all these people were in di\ufb00erent groups -- you know, the people who were repairing the cameras, the people who, you know, were responsible for opening and closing the door, the people who were responsible for putting in a new cellmate, things like that. For all that to be coordinated, it would've required, I think, as I say, maybe two dozen people. Q Uh-huh. So kind of -- and I'm not -- I don't mean to be testifying, but, like, in summary, kind of between his state of mind, previous suicide attempt, and the processes in place, in addition to the coordination it would take to override those processes all pointed towards a suicide? A Absolutely. Even before you got to the physical possibility of getting into the SHU and getting up into his cell. Q All right. A And the fact that there are eyewitnesses on that very tier, other prisoners, including two right across the way who saw no one go in that night. Q And said they never heard the door open -- A Right. Q -- and things like that. To your knowledge, did the FBI ever investigate Epstein's death as a homicide? A To my knowledge, no. Q Do you know if anyone investigated -- A I think they investigated to determine whether it was a homicide, but I don't think they ever, you know, got to the point of feeling that this was a homicide. Q They never -- the evidence -- A I mean, it was -- a homicide -- or, I mean, suicide. Q Yeah. A Yeah. Q The -- kind of that -- the evidence never swung to more probable --"], [8664, 6, 28, "Page 29", null, null, "A No. Q -- that it was a homicide? Do you recall -- A No, not that I was aware of. Q Do you recall anyone investigating it as a homicide that you were aware of? A No. I don't think anyone got to the point of feeling that it was murder. Q Going back to Dr. Baden just very brie\ufb02y, I know that you said that you recalled -- generally, you recalled conversations regarding his contrary \ufb01ndings. Do you recall having any conversations about Mr. Epstein's broken larynx and hyoid bones outside of Dr. Baden's \ufb01ndings? A I think -- I heard it discussed within the Department. Q And, to the best of your recollection, the discussions were that it was still consistent with a suicidal hanging? A Right, that they still believed the medical examiner was correct. Q And, then, you already said this, but I want to ask it explicitly: You instructed the IG to open the investigation into -- A Yes. Q -- Epstein's death? A On the -- as soon as I got o\ufb00 the phone with my chief of sta\ufb00, I believe he contacted -- I asked him to contact the IG immediately. I know that they're very familiar with Bureau of Prisons and its processes, and I was told that he had people up in New York who could get to the prison right away. Q And, then, we've talked about Mr. Epstein's state of mind an awful lot, and you said that you or someone reviewed kind of the psychologist notes from the previous suicide attempt, the reports that are associated with taking an individual o\ufb00 suicide watch. Do you recall any other"], [8665, 6, 29, "Page 30", null, null, "evidence regarding -- that you reviewed regarding his state of mind, Mr. Epstein's state of mind? A Well, you know, I was aware that, you know, he had tried suicide, which I viewed as an attempted suicide. The -- he had done his last will and testament right before. Q When did you become aware of that one? A Sometime during this period where I was absorbing information. I can't pinpoint it. But there was a period of time where things were being learned, and I was \ufb01nding out about them, if they were pertinent. And he -- his e\ufb00orts to get bail had failed. So he was looking at a period of time of incarceration in that place, which I think for him was very di\ufb03cult. And I do remember the buzz that was caused that Friday, I believe, by the release of documents by the court that had a lot of salacious material in there about prominent individuals and so forth, and that that caused quite a stir. And so I think that my judgment was this will sort of set the stage for -- and was -- and he made a call to his girlfriend apparently. I found out early that he -- that procedures were not followed, and he was allowed to make an unmonitored call to a woman, who I believe was in Byelorussia and who was his -- I understood to be or believed to be his girlfriend at the time. And he made a call to her at that point. So it seemed important for him to make a call that evening to her. And so, putting all these together, I think it was consistent with suicide. Q And then during -- A Just as to -- just as to his state of mind. Q Uh-huh. During a speech shortly thereafter at the Fraternal Order of Police conference on August 12th, you said that you learned of serious irregularities that were deeply concerning at MCC. A Uh-huh. Q Do you recall what the irregularities were? A Well, one, you know, I was wondering who the person was who made the decision to"], [8666, 6, 30, "Page 31", null, null, "take him o\ufb00 suicide watch. He had already attempted suicide. And, for all the reasons I just stated, it was someone that had to be watched, and he was high -- very high pro\ufb01le, and he would be under pressure to identify coconspirators. So I think that was one. The fact that the checks, the 30-minute checks were not performed. And I would say that there was nothing apparently unusual about that. This wasn't like people getting together and saying, \"Okay, tonight we're not going to perform the watches.\" Apparently, it was pretty consistent that they failed to perform the checks. And, thirdly, that they didn't place -- and very importantly, that they didn't place another prisoner in his cell. So I was referring to those and, you know, all these -- and the camera not being on. That -- you know, that's obviously not necessarily directly relevant to it, but -- you know, the same way the others are, but it's still all these screwups happening at the same time. Q And that was going to be my next question. You also described it as a perfect storm of screwups, is -- A Uh-huh. Q -- I think, the exact quote, that you're referencing the same things, the checks not being done, the guards allegedly falsi\ufb01ed the records regarding -- A Uh-huh. Q -- the checks, the cameras not working. Also, the corrections o\ufb03cers also didn't perform the institutional counts that night. A Right. Q Those kinds of things, the perfect storms of screwups. Is that what you were referring to? A Right. And that became clearer and clearer as things went by. But I started o\ufb00 with a state of mind on this thing like, you know, this is going to take some explaining, you know, and I can see why people would be suspicious, more than suspicious."], [8667, 6, 31, "Page 32", null, null, "Q Were the -- the IG report came out after your time as Attorney General in June of 2023? A Yes. Q The -- were you getting updates from the IG or just the FBI? A I think, my best recollection is that initially I did get some updates, you know, sort of orienting me to some of the big facts and factors. But, as -- but, you know, that -- that sort of dribbled away, and certainly, after I left the Department, I wasn't getting anything. But I don't -- I can't -- initially I got some information, and that gradually ended. Q So the kind of steady stream, as much as it can be described that way, was more from -- internal to the Department, FBI, BOP investigations that you were getting information from? A Yeah, through, sta\ufb00, sometimes through BOP people, through my own sta\ufb00 who they would talk to, sometimes directly. David Bowdich, who was the Deputy FBI Director, and I had a good relationship, and we talked frequently. And, even as time went by, during the rest of my tenure, when something -- some, you know, click-bait-type article appeared about something in the Epstein case, I would sometimes call him and say, \"Did you guys look at that,\" and, you know, so I was continuing to pick up information. Q You just mentioned David Bowdich, Deputy Director of the FBI at the time. It was reported that you instructed him to keep the Deputy AG Mr. Rosen informed every 3 hours. Does that sound accurate? A Maybe on the \ufb01rst day or second day -- Q Yeah. It de\ufb01nitely -- A -- I mean, initially. Did I say every 3 hours? Q That's what was reported, but, you know, it's what was reported. A But it wasn't in my book? Q No. A Okay. I told him to keep the Deputy's O\ufb03ce advised, you know, I think, probably every"], [8668, 6, 32, "Page 33", null, null, "day. I doubt I said every 3 hours. But, if I did say it, that may have been just on the \ufb01rst few days, like we need to know in real time because all these allegations and the internet was going crazy. Q Yeah. We just discussed some of the -- I'll describe them as kind of security failures at that time, more -- maybe caused by low sta\ufb03ng, low budget, whatever the cause was. There were a number of failures that occurred between August 9th and August 10th. We've discussed the -- Mr. Epstein's attempted suicide on July 23, 2019, and you said you were -- you -- did you become aware of that after his death, or was it prior? A Become aware of what? Q His attempted suicide in July. A That's a good question. I -- you know, at some point, I obviously became aware of it. My -- it's possible it happened before his suicide. That he was taken o\ufb00, you're saying? Q Or that he -- A No. No. I heard about his suicide. Q No, no, that in July -- A I mean suicide attempt. Q You heard about the suicide attempt -- A Yes. Q -- prior to his eventual death? A Yes. Yes. I -- yes. And I knew he was put on -- I knew he was put on suicide watch. Q And was that -- I mean, I -- A But I don't remember being told that he was o\ufb00 the watch. I could've been told before his suicide. My best recollection is that, after his suicide, I was certainly told about their kerfu\ufb04e over whether or not he should be taken o\ufb00 watch. Q And that kind of information \ufb02owing up to the Attorney General's O\ufb03ce, was it primarily because Mr. Epstein was a -- it was a very high-pro\ufb01le inmate?"], [8669, 6, 33, "Page 34", null, null, "A That he had attempted suicide? Q Uh-huh. A Yes. Q Did -- A Well, yes. Q The Attorney General wouldn't be noti\ufb01ed every time an inmate in BOP custody attempts suicide? A Not for an attempt. Q We discussed him being put on suicide watch and kind of what that entailed, and you just mentioned where I was going next, that he was removed from watch after 24 hours, which I believe is the minimum amount of time that you're allowed to be on suicide watch? A I don't -- I can't remember exactly how long he was on watch. I was on the impression it was multiple days, but I don't know. Q He was on -- I'll represent this, and I can bring it into the record, but he was on o\ufb03cial suicide watch for 24 hours and then stayed in that cell for about a week but was no longer on constant monitoring, and then was moved back to the SHU. A I just can't remember those details. Q Okay. A I know he was on suicide watch, and then he was released from suicide watch. Q And you mentioned, and I'll just get your thought, a kind of kerfu\ufb04e around -- A Yeah. Q -- whether or not to be removed from suicide watch. Can you go into more detail about that? A Well, that happened, and people were \ufb01lling me in on this because it did not cast either BOP or the Department in a good light that he was -- that someone like this would attempt suicide"], [8670, 6, 34, "Page 35", null, null, "and then be not put on suicide watch. So I was regaled about that, you know, the arguments and the process. Q Okay. And you recall -- do you recall people advocating for a longer suicide watch for him or -- A I don't recall the details, no. Q Okay. And then -- A I -- you know, I mean, Main Justice would not have been involved in that, because, you know, this was a pretrial -- MCC is pretrial. And, you know, generally, the way a pretrial suspect is handled is monitored by the U.S. Attorney's O\ufb03ce because they're the ones that have to report to the judge when the judge is asking questions about, you know. And so I normally wouldn't have been brought into that. Something of this pro\ufb01le, I wish I had been. Q And then the IG kind of went into detail about going on and taken o\ufb00 suicide watch. Do you remember any internal investigations after his death, whether -- about the decision to take him o\ufb00 suicide watch? A Just the IG's. And -- yeah, just the IG's. I don't know about the Bureau. I can't remember. Q And FBI is the Bureau in that case? A Yes. Q Okay. I'm sorry. There's lots of bureaus. A They're the only bureau. Q After -- and, again, all of this is to the best of your recollection. So, if you don't recall the speci\ufb01cs, that's totally okay. After he was put back in the Special Housing Unit, according to his roommate, who was interviewed by the IG, he was provided with extra bedding and sheets, a perk that not very many inmates got. Do you recall any conversations about that? A I don't remember that."], [8671, 6, 35, "Page 36", null, null, "Q Okay. Shifting to the security cameras, which we talked about a little bit, but I want to talk about the circumstances surrounding the cameras a little bit more, that there were 11 or so in or around the SHU entrance and exits, hallways. And we already discussed the one pointing straight down L block, and then we watched the footage from the one pointing into the common area. There was a DVR failure that resulted in these cameras working in real time but not recording. Does that -- do you recall that? A It was my understanding that a number of the cameras were not recording, although they were still streaming live. Q And the DVR failure was -- for a while, had been going on for a while but was discovered on August 8th. Does that sound -- A I didn't know that at the time but subsequently found that out. Q And then kind of the process of getting it back on -- A Getting it \ufb01xed. Q -- getting it \ufb01xed took longer than expected, I think -- A Yes. Q -- is correct? Is that right? A Yes. I was not aware of this as it was going on. I was aware shortly after the suicide that the cameras had apparently failed, and there was an e\ufb00ort that went on for, I would say, more than 1 day, you know, of the Bureau going in to -- with technical experts to try to still capture something and go over the disk and stu\ufb00 like that. Q Do you recall the explanation given for the failure of the cameras? A No. I can't remember the details of it, but I did monitor the technical people were working hard on trying to get it, and then, you know, I saw whatever that was what they had. Q Do you recall seeing any evidence of tampering with the DVR system? A The Bureau, I don't think, believed it was tampered. They felt it was -- there was a"], [8672, 6, 36, "Page 37", null, null, "nonmalicious explanation for it. Q And, kind of generally, in your discussions with the FBI and others investigating this, did the lack of camera recordings have any negative impact on the investigation? A You know, I mean, it made the investigation harder, obviously, yeah. Q I mean, if the camera down L block had been working, it would've been an easier investigation? A Yeah. Now, it was working, and that's -- Q Yes. If it had been recording. A It wasn't in -- I'm not sure, but in -- my belief is that it was not general knowledge that they were not recording, and people would've thought they were working. Mr. O'Callaghan. So, when you spoke about camera failures in answering questions, the failures were the recording. The Witness. That's -- BY : Q Yes. And, I apologize, I'm trying to be very speci\ufb01c in that it was not recording to the DVR. They were projecting on the security monitors in real time, just not saving to the DVR. You talk about another one of the series of mistakes is the lack of roommate, that, after suicide watch, the psych department had said that he needed to have a roommate at all times. Do you recall conversations in the aftermath about why there wasn't a roommate assigned to his cell? A Yes. Q What were those conversations? A I can't remember the details, but I actually spent a lot of time on this issue and had people walk me through, you know, why was he being released, what was the process, why did he have to be released then, who was in charge of that, why did he get released, and I went through all that stu\ufb00, and I went through it in detail."], [8673, 6, 37, "Page 38", null, null, "Q And didn't \ufb01nd -- to your knowledge, didn't \ufb01nd anything malicious in the timing of his release? A No. Q And didn't \ufb01nd anything malicious in that the -- that MCC had not assigned Epstein a new roommate? A I think that was the judgment of the FBI after a period of time, and then that ultimately was the judgment of the IG as well. That's my recollection. Q What -- do you recall kind of what the indications were brought to you that it was just a mistake to not assign him a roommate? A I can't remember the details of it, the who struck John, but there were a lot of people involved who, you know, \"I told him this,\" \"No, he didn't tell me this,\" you know, whether this watch o\ufb03cer knew something or whether they didn't know something, and it was sort of -- it was intricate. That's all I can remember. Q Yeah. A But, at the end of the day, it appeared to be screwups. Q And I think that's -- as you said, that was the IG's conclusion, too, that it was a lot of word of mouth of this guy is getting transferred and confusion regarding if it was just going to trial or a permanent transfer -- A Right. Q -- that kind of stu\ufb00. A There were things like that. And then there's, you know, di\ufb00erent correctional o\ufb03cers' shifts and things, and whether things that are important are communicated, and all that kind of thing. Q It was -- in the course of the investigation, did you ever go to MCC? A No."], [8674, 6, 38, "Page 39", null, null, "Q Did you ever speak to the -- any of the inmates that were around Mr. Epstein at the time? A No. Q Did you ever speak to any of his roommates? A No. But I believe they were interviewed and was told the results."], [8675, 6, 39, "Page 40", null, null, "[11:02 a.m.] BY : Q I have nine minutes left, so I'm going to do the unmonitored phone call, and then we'll go o\ufb00 the record for this round. You had mentioned earlier and said that the IG, in its review, that Mr. Epstein made an unmonitored phone call the evening prior to being brought back to his cell before he was -- before his death on the 10th. Do you recall being made aware of that after the fact? A After his suicide? Q Uh-huh. A Yes. Q And were you briefed regarding what happened with the call? A Along the way, I -- my recollection is the Bureau spent time trying to \ufb01gure out who was the recipient and trying to track that person down. Q And is it -- A And, you know, eventually I -- the only thing I really remember, it was someone in Byelorussia, I think. That's my best recollection. Q But with a New York City area code? A I don't remember the details. Q Okay. What are the -- to the best of your knowledge, what are the policies for inmates making phone calls to non-attorneys? A You know, I did ask the FBI what was the call about, what did people -- what did she say, and all that kind of thing. So my understanding was that calls like that had to be monitored, and you couldn't make an"], [8676, 6, 40, "Page 41", null, null, "unmonitored call unless there was a reason, like, \"My lawyer is going to\" -- \"I'm talking to my lawyer.\" Q And in addition to being monitored by a corrections o\ufb03cer, these calls are usually recorded? A Yes. Q Is that correct? A Yes. Q Was this call recorded? A I don't -- no, not that I'm aware of. Q The IG did a review, and I believe the Southern District of New York eventually did as well, where individual one, the recipient of the call, or her attorney, gave a pro\ufb00er to the Southern District of New York. Are you aware of that? A I can't remember. I remember asking, I think it was Bowdich, what we had discovered about that call. Q In the -- the pro\ufb00er described the call of Mr. Epstein saying, like, \"There's going to be tough times, I love you, I'm sorry,\" that kind of -- those kinds of language. Do you recall hearing that kind of readout of the call? A I don't recall the speci\ufb01cs, but I thought the call was consistent with saying goodbye to someone, but not telling them you're about to commit suicide. Q Did they ever discover the identity of the recipient? A I'm not sure -- and I couldn't say, by the way, at that point he had already made up his mind as to exactly when he was going to do it. But it -- it was -- to me, it was consistent with -- with it. I'm sorry. What was your other question? Q Did they ever discover the identity of the recipient of the phone call?"], [8677, 6, 41, "Page 42", null, null, "A I believe they did. That's my best recollection. Q Do you recall who it was? A No. Q I'll just ask about one person. Do you recall if it was Ghislaine Maxwell? A It was not. It was not her. Q It was not her? A No. That's a good spot. We can go o\ufb00 the record. [Recess.] Mr. O'Callaghan. We're on the record? We're on the record. Mr. O'Callaghan. So just before we start with your questions, Attorney General Barr just wanted to clarify two points from the prior testimony. It makes sense to do it now and, obviously, won't count against your time, if that's okay. Yeah, absolutely. Mr. O'Callaghan. Okay. The Witness. So despite your best e\ufb00orts to orient me to this \ufb02oor plan -- Mr. O'Callaghan. He's referring to the schematic, exhibit 3. The Witness. -- I was completely turned around on it, and for some reason was discussing it as if the camera was to the lower left instead of where it was, which was to the upper right. And, as I said, the main entrance would be to the lower right of the camera scene. And so that door that counsel showed me at the far end of this -- of the common area -- is the principal entrance, the primary entrance to the SHU. Mr. O'Callaghan. So just -- the witness is indicating the black rectangular box next to the red"], [8678, 6, 42, "Page 43", null, null, "portion of Mr. Epstein's cell on the schematic. The Witness. The other thing is that I don't have a speci\ufb01c recollection of the exact time I found out about being taken o\ufb00 suicide watch, but my best recollection was it was after his suicide. Mr. O'Callaghan. Those are the two points. Thank you. EXAMINATION BY : Q Mr. Barr, good morning. I am going to proceed chronologically, and in doing so, I'm going to cover some of the topics that my majority colleagues did in a previous round, not to make you repeat yourself, but just to follow up on some issues and ensure that we have a clear record. And I'll start with the Florida investigation; that is, the investigation into Mr. Epstein by the U.S. Attorney's O\ufb03ce for the Southern District of Florida. When did you become aware of that investigation? A With everyone else, according to the papers, while it was going on. Q At the time it was -- A When there was the -- when there was the big outburst about a special deal and all that kind of stu\ufb00. Q So roughly in the 2007 time frame? A Whenever it became public there was a plea agreement. Q And do you recall how you became aware of it? A The newspapers. Q Newspapers. Just a question about the resolution of that investigation. As I'm sure you're aware, Mr. Epstein entered into a nonprosecution agreement with the U.S."], [8679, 6, 43, "Page 44", null, null, "Attorney's O\ufb03ce in September -- September 2007. Among other things, that agreement bound the United States not to, quote, \"institute any criminal charges against any potential coconspirators of Epstein,\" unquote. Are you familiar with that agreement? Mr. O'Callaghan. So, hold on. Excuse me. Attorney General Barr was under subpoena, and the scope of the cover letter was about the investigation by the Department of Justice into Epstein and Maxwell while he was Attorney General. You're asking about information that he was not Attorney General, and so I think it's beyond the scope of what the subpoena called for. I don't think I would agree with that scope, and I think the proceedings here today are focused on the DOJ's investigation concerning Mr. Epstein generally. And the question I'm asking now goes to Mr. Barr's perspective based on his experience as Attorney General. Mr. O'Callaghan. Which time? Which time? Well, experience as Attorney General both times. BY : Q Just based on your professional perspective, sir. Have you seen a provision in a plea agreement that bound the United States not to pursue coconspirators that were unknown at the time the agreement was entered into? A I don't recall having any inside information or information that wasn't publicly available about those events about the investigation in Florida and its ultimate -- and the ultimate plea agreement. To the best of my recollection, I knew what I saw in the papers. I remember at the time having a reaction -- looking at -- because there was a hubbub about it. I remember looking at -- or thinking about and delving a little bit into it and -- but that happened before I was Attorney General the second time."], [8680, 6, 44, "Page 45", null, null, "Q The second time. During either of your tenures as Attorney General, have you ever seen a comparable provision that had the same e\ufb00ect, again -- A During the time I was Attorney General, I don't recall seeing a comparable provision. I think the thing that I didn't like about it was that it took away from the victims their allocution rights, and I thought that that was pretty aggressive, and I thought it was vulnerable. So that's just my own thinking when I saw it. Q I appreciate that. Just to ask you -- Ms. Crockett. Can I jump in really quickly? Yeah. Ms. Crockett. I'm sorry. Just to go back to what was just brought up about -- during your tenure during either times you were Attorney General, do you recall there ever being a scenario that you authorized that was similar that disallowed the prosecution of coconspirators in this type of plea deal? The Witness. You know, I can't speci\ufb01cally remember things that were -- that I approved. But I'm not sure that provision sticks out at me as odd. Ms. Crockett. Okay. But you can't recall ever approving anything like that before, right? The Witness. Right. Ms. Crockett. Thank you. BY : Q There was discussion during the previous round of the chain of communication within DOJ and between Main Justice and the U.S. Attorney's O\ufb03ce. I'd like to ask you about communication between DOJ and the White House. And, again, this is focused on both of your tenures as Attorney General. How common was it, generally speaking, for you to communicate directly with the President"], [8681, 6, 45, "Page 46", null, null, "about investigations that DOJ was handling? A Well, it depends what the investigation was about. On Epstein, I only remember two conversations I had with the President. Q So could you tell us about those two conversations? A One was when I heard about the suicide, I called him up and said, \"You better brace for this,\" and I told him words to that e\ufb00ect, and I told him about it and told him we were going to be investigating it very vigorously. And the second one, I can't say for sure whether it happened before his suicide, during -- meaning around the time of his arrest or whether it happened after his suicide during the continued developments there. But the topic of Epstein came up in the conversation. Multiple people were there. And, sort of, the news of -- it was commented on being the news of the day. And the President said something to the e\ufb00ect that he had broken o\ufb00 with Epstein long ago and that he had actually pushed him out of Mar-a-Lago. Q Okay. And just to clarify, those were both conversations with President Trump? A Both involved with President Trump, yeah. Those are the only two conversations I can remember where Epstein came up with the President. Q And when you say that you told President Trump who the news of the suicide would a\ufb00ect, what did you mean by that? A Who it would a\ufb00ect? Did I say that? Q I'm sorry. Unless I'm misunderstanding your characterization. A I didn't mean to say that. Q Okay. A I said that I told him that he committed suicide and that he suspected it was apparently suicide. And he had the same reaction I did, which was, \"How the hell did that happen, he's in"], [8682, 6, 46, "Page 47", null, null, "Federal custody?\" And the last everyone knew, he was being carefully watched precisely for that reason. And I think I conveyed to him that it was appalling and that we were going to investigate it vigorously and I -- and he had the same reaction I did, which is this is going to certainly generate a lot of conspiracy theories. These are not his exact words, but that's what I remember about the conversation being e\ufb00ectively -- maybe words to the e\ufb00ect, yeah. Q Did President Trump say anything else in that conversation? A That's all I can recall. Q So just to tie all this together, would I be correct in understanding that prior to Mr. Epstein's suicide, you did not communicate directly with the President in connection with the Epstein investigation? A I said that the one conversation I recall could have happened before his suicide, around the time of his arrest, but my best recollection is it happened later. But those are the only two conversations I can remember having with the President directly about Epstein. Mr. O'Callaghan. About Epstein generally, not the Epstein investigation? The Witness. Right. Yeah. BY : Q Shifting back to the Florida investigation, it's my understanding that you recused yourself during your second tenure as Attorney General from DOJ's review of that prosecution and the plea agreement. Is that correct? A No, I didn't recuse myself. I think in my con\ufb01rmation hearing I put that -- I didn't want to cross that bridge because I needed to consult people about the issue, and I wasn't sure of the timing of things. And so -- you know, when things occurred and so forth. So later on, when it became an issue, I had it reviewed and got the advice of the Ethics people"], [8683, 6, 47, "Page 48", null, null, "in the DOJ, and I did not recuse myself. Q Did not recuse yourself? A Yes. Q And this is the Florida investigation? A No. It was the -- Q The Southern District of New York investigation? A That's the only thing that I was aware of going on when I was there. Q Okay. So to clarify, did you have any involvement at all in DOJ's review of the Florida investigation that took place during your second tenure? A I don't recall playing a role in the review of that. In terms of whether it was a proper? I didn't play a role in that review. I think there was discussions when New York was moving forward with the prosecution. People wanted to be careful that it didn't run afoul of any of the provisions in that agreement. Q And I can be more speci\ufb01c. So it's my understanding that the DOJ's O\ufb03ce of Professional Responsibility undertook an investigation in 2019 -- A Right. Q -- into the circumstances surrounding the Florida plea deal. A Right. I didn't -- I wasn't hovering over that or involved in that. I learned about their conclusions, you know, from when they concluded, when they reached them. Q After they issued the report? A I can't remember exactly when. At some point I learned that OPR was saying that it was improper. Q Have you ever discussed the Epstein investigation generally with Mr. Acosta? A I don't recall discussion of the investigation. I may have around that -- there was a lot"], [8684, 6, 48, "Page 49", null, null, "of publicity around the fact that he might be pushed out of the administration. I may have expressed commiseration with him that he was facing that kind of public challenge, but I didn't discuss the investigation. Q What was your understanding of the reason that he was pushed out of the administration? A I don't know. I don't -- I think he -- I think he resigned. I think he resigned, so he -- my understanding was he resigned so he didn't -- so this didn't continue -- this issue didn't continue to hound the administration. That was my recollection of what happened. Q And to your understanding, did he resign on his own initiative, or was it under pressure from the White House? A I don't know. I think it was explained as him stepping down to avoid the continued problem, but I don't know what happened behind the scenes. Q With respect to the report that OPR issued, you mentioned that you took issue with, as I understood it, Mr. Acosta's failure to involve the victims in the process. A Well, my recollection -- and I haven't looked at this -- but my recollection is that part of it ended up not allowing the victims to have their say, which is under Federal statute they have the right to do. That's my recollection of the issue. And so I thought that -- I think it's wrong not to let the victims have their say. And here I also thought it was a legal vulnerability. But that was just me as a private citizen saying, \"Well, gee, wow.\" Q I'll represent to you the report also concluded that Mr. Acosta's decision to resolve the Federal investigation through the MPA constituted poor judgment, in OPR's words, among other things, by resolving the Federal investigation before signi\ufb01cant investigative steps were completed. Is that consistent with your understanding? A Right now, I don't have a recollection of that."], [8685, 6, 49, "Page 50", null, null, "Q Mr. Acosta reportedly has stated that he was told that Je\ufb00rey Epstein, quote, \"belongs to intelligence and to leave it alone,\" unquote. Are you aware of Mr. Acosta saying that? A No. Other than what's ever been reported in articles over the years. Q Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Epstein having any ties to any intelligence agency? A No. Q Or of Mr. Acosta being told -- A I don't know about any ties. I have no reason to believe he was working for the CIA or any intelligence agency, and I'm dubious about claims like that. Now, many American businessmen who have foreign contacts sometimes will talk to intelligence agencies and provide information to them. And the CIA has a unit that goes around and talks to people who are well-connected and asks them questions. So my supposition, when I saw things about him being connected to U.S. intelligence, maybe, like many other businessmen, he talks to them, but this is not, in my opinion, based on what I saw, I didn't think it was an intelligence operation, and I never received any information that led me to believe that. Q Do you have any idea why Mr. Acosta would suggest that it was? A I don't know he did -- whether he did. Wasn't that someone attributing something to him? Q That's his reported statement. A Okay. Q I'll shift gears now and move on to the Southern District of New York investigation. And for the sake of brevity, if it's okay with you, I'll refer to Southern District of New York as SDNY. A Sure. That's how I would refer to it."], [8686, 6, 50, "Page 51", null, null, "Q I understand -- you mentioned earlier that you -- a determination was made that you would not recuse yourself from the SDNY investigation. And just to make sure my understanding is clear, was that based on input from the Ethics O\ufb03ce at DOJ? A That's my recollection, yeah. Q Okay. And do you recall the rationale for concluding that your continued involvement was consistent with the ethics regs? A Because I really didn't have a connection. I wasn't involved in the \ufb01rst investigation. Q There has been mention in the press about your father's role as the headmaster of the Dalton School in New York. Was that a consideration in the Ethics O\ufb03ce analysis? A Actually, I don't even think -- I don't know whether I was aware of that at that time. Obviously not. It's not pertinent at all. Q You spoke generally during the previous round about the nature and extent of your involvement in the SDNY investigation. I'd like to just delve into that in a bit more detail, if I could. To begin with, could you describe the allocation of responsibility between yourself and U.S. Attorney Berman? A Well, the U.S. Attorney -- all U.S. Attorneys are responsible for pursuing investigations and making prosecutorial judgments. Q Yeah. Just to clarify, I don't mean generally operationally within DOJ. I'm speaking speci\ufb01cally with respect to the Epstein investigation. A Well, this was a case that was within his purview. He had, obviously, approved or was involved in either its launching or continued under him, and so he was responsible for conducting the investigation and making the initial prosecutorial judgments. Also, under the Department rules, that if he believes there's a basis for investigating someone who is a prominent person or a senior political o\ufb03cial or whatever, he is supposed to send an urgent"], [8687, 6, 51, "Page 52", null, null, "report to my attention. Q What was the extent during the SDNY investigation of your interaction with FBI agents? A During the investigation of it? Q Yes. The Epstein investigation. A I would say the agents up in New York, but people at headquarters, after the suicide, I told the headquarters to make sure that they \ufb02ooded the zone. That is, that they provided the investigative o\ufb03ce, which was the New York FBI o\ufb03ce, all the resources necessary and made sure that a Federal investigation was being done. And Bowdich oversaw. He's the deputy in Washington. The actual investigation was carried out by the New York agents -- most of it, I think, by New York agents. I didn't have contact with people up in New York, the agents up in New York. Q And apart -- A It is possible that when I was being briefed at some points they would put someone like that on the line to explain something to me, but I didn't seek out contacts with people and the people the FBI made available to me. Q Within FBI Headquarters, apart from Mr. Bowdich, was there anyone else you communicated with directly about the investigation? A FBI? Q Yes. A I'm trying to remember who was the head of the Criminal Division. I don't recall anyone other than Bowdich. I think I may have had conversations with Chris Wray about it, sort of what a mess the thing was. Q And within SDNY, did you ever communicate directly with any of the line prosecutors? A No, not that I recall. Q And you spoke in the previous round, as I understood, about being briefed by the DAG"], [8688, 6, 52, "Page 53", null, null, "at the regular meetings that were held at Main Justice. Were you briefed by U.S. Attorney Berman as well? A You know, I think I probably had a conversation with Berman, a general conversation. But I think, to the extent he communicated or his people communicated, it would have been more to the deputy's o\ufb03ce, and then I would have been told about it. Q When did your conversation with Mr. Berman take place? A You know, I can't say for sure there was. I think -- all I know is that I became aware of the investigation. I became aware that there was people looking at the issue of whether or not it would be permitted under the -- to what extent there are limitations imposed by the Florida plea agreement, things like that. And I remember -- my best recollection is I had a conversation with him after the suicide where he strongly assured me and made it clear that this was a priority of the o\ufb03ce and that they would continue pushing ahead. Q Did you ever discuss with Mr. Berman any of the conversations you had with President Trump? A No. Not that I can recall. Q And, again, in terms of the investigative process, were you involved at all in the decision surrounding what charges to bring before the grand jury against Mr. Epstein? A No. Q Did you review the indictment? A I can't recall reviewing the indictment. I may have been -- I may have or been shown it -- Q And were you -- A -- but I don't recall it. Q Were you briefed regarding the speci\ufb01c charges that SDNY intended to bring?"], [8689, 6, 53, "Page 54", null, null, "A I think I was told what they were. I don't recall how deep the conversation was. Q Was there ever any disagreement between you and SDNY over who to charge or what charges to bring? A I don't remember one. Q Any -- A You mean the \ufb01rst time around? Q The -- A The initial indictment against Epstein in July? Mr. O'Callaghan. Maybe a time frame would help. The Witness. July. Mr. O'Callaghan. 2019? Are we talking 2019? Yes, yes. The Witness. Okay. Thanks. BY : Q To your knowledge, did anyone else at Main Justice disagree with the charges that SDNY intended to bring? A I don't recall any disagreement. Q In the two conversations you had with President Trump, did the President express any views on the investigation? A Not that I can recall, no. Q Did he ever give you any instructions with respect to it -- A No. Q -- or express any preferences -- A No."], [8690, 6, 54, "Page 55", null, null, "Q -- with respect to the investigation? A No. Q To your knowledge, did anyone else at DOJ discuss the SDNY investigation with anyone in the White House? A Not to my knowledge. Q The FBI's investigation, did that continue post-indictment? A The FBI's investigation of the suicide? Q The FBI's investigation into Mr. Epstein's crimes. A My understanding is that the investigation was going forward because they were at that stage looking for people who were complicit in the tra\ufb03cking, either by facilitating it or by essentially exploiting the victims. Q And do you know how long the FBI's investigation continued? A I think it continued throughout my tenure. Q I'd like to shift and focus on the evidence that the FBI obtained during the course of the investigation, and I'm going -- A I think this was an investigation directed by the Southern District, so it involved their prosecutorial team. It wasn't the FBI in the initial stages of the investigation, but they were essentially -- Q Yes. A -- working with the prosecutors. Q Understood. A Yes. Q I'm going to ask the court reporter to mark as exhibit A an ABC News article titled \"What the government evidence list tells us about the unreleased Epstein \ufb01les,\" dated July 17th, 2025, and as exhibit B a three-page catalog of evidence that was reportedly prepared by the FBI."]], "truncated": false, "filtered_table_rows_count": 122, "expanded_columns": [], "expandable_columns": [[{"column": "deposition_id", "other_table": "depositions", "other_column": "id"}, "title"]], "columns": ["id", "deposition_id", "segment_index", "speaker", "start_seconds", "end_seconds", "text"], "primary_keys": ["id"], "units": {}, "query": {"sql": "select id, deposition_id, segment_index, speaker, start_seconds, end_seconds, text from segments where \"deposition_id\" = :p0 order by id limit 51", "params": {"p0": "6"}}, "facet_results": {}, "suggested_facets": [], "next": "8690", "next_url": "https://epstein-data.com/deposition_transcripts/segments.json?deposition_id=6&_next=8690", "private": false, "allow_execute_sql": true, "query_ms": 25.457309558987617, "source": "Epstein Files Transparency Act (Public Law 119-38) DOJ Production", "source_url": "https://www.justice.gov/epstein", "license": "CC BY-NC-SA 4.0", "license_url": "https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/"}