{"database": "deposition_transcripts", "table": "segments", "is_view": false, "human_description_en": "where deposition_id = 12", "rows": [[9450, 12, 0, "Page 1", null, null, "COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C. INTERVIEW OF: WILLIAM H. GATES, III Wednesday, June 10, 2026 Washington, D.C. The interview in the above matter was held in Room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 10:00 a.m. Present: Representatives Comer, Higgins, Timmons, Boebert, Crane, Perry, Burchett, McGuire, Burlison, Garcia, Krishnamoorthi, Lynch, Subramanyam, Walkinshaw, Crockett, Ansari, Randall, Khanna, Stansbury, Frost, and Bell."], [9451, 12, 2, "Page 3", null, null, ", MINORITY STAFF DIRECTOR , MINORITY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR , MINORITY RESEARCH ASSISTANT , MINORITY RESEARCH ANALYST , MINORITY INTERN , MINORITY SENIOR COUNSEL , MINORITY PRESS SECRETARY , MINORITY SENIOR COUNSEL , MINORITY FELLOW , MINORITY SENIOR ADVISOR , MINORITY LEGAL INTERN , MINORITY CHIEF COUNSEL For WILLIAM H. GATES, III: JOHN MORAN McGuireWoods TOM CLARE MEGAN MCGUIGGAN Clare Locke LLP ROB NABORS"], [9452, 12, 3, "Page 4", null, null, "Mr. Spectre. This is a transcribed interview of Mr. William H. Gates, III, conducted by the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform under the authority granted to it pursuant to House rule X. Accordingly, House rule X grants the Committee broad jurisdiction for the Committee to conduct investigations of any matter at any time. This interview was requested by Chairman James Comer as part of the Committee's investigation into the circumstances and subsequent investigations into the crimes of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, the operation of sex trafficking rings and the ways for the Federal Government to effectively combat them, the ways in which Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell sought to curry favor and exercise influence to protect their illegal activities, and potential violations of ethics rules related to elected officials. Can the witness please state his name and spell his last name for the record? Mr. Gates. William Henry Gates, III. G-a-t-e-s. Mr. Spectre. Thank you, sir. I want to thank Mr. Gates for appearing here voluntarily today. My name is Peter Spectre, and I am the director of oversight for Chairman James Comer. Under the Committee on Oversight and Government Reforms rules, you are allowed to have counsel present to advise you during this interview. Do you have counsel representing you in a personal capacity present with you today? Mr. Gates. I do. Mr. Spectre. Will counsel please identify themselves for the record? Mr. Moran. John Moran, McGuireWoods. Mr. Clare. Tom Clare, Clare Locke LLP. Mr. Spectre. Thank you. For the record, starting with the majority staff, can the additional staff members please introduce themselves with their name, title, and affiliation?"], [9453, 12, 4, "Page 5", null, null, "Mr. Grant. Billy Grant, deputy chief counsel for investigations for Chairman Comer. Mr. Emmer. Jack Emmer, chief counsel for investigations for Chairman Comer. Mr. Ashworth. Daniel Ashworth, general counsel for Chairman Comer. Mr. Giachetti. Ryan Giachetti, chief counsel for Chairman Comer. Mr. Harnice. Will Harnice, professional staff member for Chairman Comer. Ms. Cathey. Hannah Cathey, professional staff member for Chairman Comer. Ms. Brignac. Brittany Brignac, senior counsel for Chairman Comer. Ms. Tolan. Ellison Tolan, counsel for Chairman Comer. Ms. Cogar. Mallory Cogar, director of operations and chief clerk, Chairman Comer. Ms. Hinojosa. Kylie Hinojosa, professional staff member and administrative clerk for Chairman Comer. Mr. Hacker. Austin Hacker, deputy communications director, Chairman Comer. Ms. Vinyard. Ashlee Vinyard, deputy staff director for Chairman Comer. Mr. Soto. Melvin Soto, digital director, Chairman Comer. Ms. Collins. Jessica Collins, communications director, Chairman Comer. Mr. Marin. Mark Marin, staff director, Chairman Comer. , research assistant, Ranking Member Garcia. , senior counsel, Ranking Member Garcia. , research analyst, Ranking Member Garcia. , chief counsel, Ranking Member Garcia. , staff director, Ranking Member Garcia. , press secretary, Ranking Member Garcia. , deputy press secretary, Ranking Member Garcia. , clerk intern, Ranking Member Garcia. , senior advisor for Ranking Member Garcia."], [9454, 12, 5, "Page 6", null, null, ", legal intern, Ranking Member Garcia. , legal intern, Ranking Member Garcia. , fellow, Ranking Member Garcia. , senior counsel, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. Spectre. Thank you. Starting with the majority, can the members of the Committee please introduce themselves? Chairman Comer. James Comer, chairman, House Oversight, Kentucky. Mr. Higgins. Clay Higgins, Louisiana. Mr. Crane. Eli Crane, Arizona. Mr. Perry. Scott Perry, Pennsylvania's 10th. Mr. Subramanyam. Minority Congressman Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia's 10th District. Mr. Spectre. Thank you all. Mr. Gates, before we begin, I would like to go over the ground rules for this interview. The questioning will proceed in rounds. The majority will ask questions for up to an hour and then the minority will have an opportunity to ask questions for up to an hour if they choose. To the extent members have questions for the witness, they will be propounded during their side's respective rounds. The clock will stop if you need to confer with counsel, when your counsel is speaking, and when members or staff are speaking during the opposing side's rounds of questions. We will alternate back and forth until there are no more questions. Do you understand? Mr. Gates. I do. Mr. Spectre. There is a court reporter taking down everything I say and everything you say to make a written record of the interview. For the record to be clear, please wait until the staffer questioning you finishes each question before you begin your answer, and the staffer will wait until you finish your response before proceeding to the next question. Further, to ensure the court reporter can properly record this interview, please speak clearly,"], [9455, 12, 6, "Page 7", null, null, "concisely, and slowly. Also, the court reporter cannot record nonverbal answers, such as nodding or shaking your head, so it is important that you answer each question with an audible, verbal answer. Exhibits may be entered into the record. Majority exhibits will be identified numerically. Minority exhibits will be identified alphabetically. We want you to answer our questions in the most complete and truthful manner possible, so we will take our time. If you have any questions or do not fully understand our question, please let us know and we will attempt to clarify, add context to, or rephrase our questions. If we ask about specific conversations or events in the past and you are unable to recall the exact words or details, you should testify to the substance of those conversations or events to the best of your recollection. If you recall only a part of a conversation or event, you should give us your best recollection of those events or parts of conversations that you do recall. Do you understand? Mr. Gates. I do. Mr. Spectre. Although you are here voluntarily, you are required by law pursuant to Title 18 of the United States Code, Section 1001, to answer questions from Congress truthfully. This also applies to questions posed by congressional staff in this interview. Do you understand? Mr. Gates. Yes. Mr. Spectre. If at any time you knowingly make false statements, you could be subject to criminal prosecution. Do you understand? Mr. Gates. I do. Mr. Spectre. This includes both knowingly providing false testimony but also stating that you do not recall or remember something when, in fact, you do. Do you understand? Mr. Gates. I do. Mr. Spectre. Furthermore, you cannot tell half truths or exclude information necessary to"], [9456, 12, 7, "Page 8", null, null, "make your statements accurate. You are required to provide all information that would make your response truthful. A deliberate failure to disclose information can constitute a false statement. Do you understand? Mr. Gates. I do. Mr. Spectre. Is there any reason you are unable to provide truthful testimony in today's interview? Mr. Gates. There's none. Mr. Spectre. Please note that if you wish to assert a privilege over any statement today, that assertion must comply with the rules of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. Pursuant to that, Committee rule 16(c)(1) states, For the chair to consider assertions of privilege over testimony or statements, witnesses or entities must clearly state the specific privilege being asserted and the reason for the assertion on or before the scheduled date of testimony or appearance. Do you understand? Mr. Gates. Somewhat. Mr. Spectre. Ordinarily, we take a 5-minute break at the end of each hour of questioning, but if you need a longer break or a break before that, please let us know and we'll be happy to accommodate. However, to the extent that there is a pending question, we would ask that you finish answering the question before we take the break. Do you understand? Mr. Gates. I do. Mr. Spectre. Do you have any other questions before we begin? Mr. Gates. I do not. Mr. Spectre. I do understand you have an opening statement that you'd like to read for the record. Is that right? Mr. Gates. Yes. Mr. Spectre. You may go ahead."], [9457, 12, 8, "Page 9", null, null, "Mr. Gates. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. I am here to answer your questions about my interactions with Jeffrey Epstein and to help contribute to the Committee's important work. I support the release of all the Epstein files and sincerely hope that through your efforts and those of others advocating on their behalf, the survivors of Epstein's crimes, Epstein's crimes, can get the justice that they deserve. At the outset, I want to state very clearly I never witnessed nor had any indication that Epstein was engaged in ongoing criminal conduct. I never went to his island, his ranch, or his Florida home. I have never victimized anyone. While he may have sought to foster a personal relationship, I was never interested in that and never reciprocated. I was introduced to Epstein in 2011 through people I trusted in my professional and philanthropic work. Epstein claimed that he could raise billions of dollars for global health from people for whom he provided tax and estate services. I recall being aware that Epstein had faced prior legal issues, but I did not fully understand the extent of the crimes he committed. I accepted the introduction without applying the scrutiny I should have. For almost two decades, my full-time focus has been global health and education. I've been guided by the belief that all lives have equal value and that every child should have the chance to live a healthy life, no matter where they were born. I have committed all my resources and my time to this effort, but my wealth alone cannot fill the enormous funding gap that remains. This is why trying to encourage others of significant means to invest in global health has become such an important element of my work. My interactions with Epstein began with a limited number of preliminary meetings, three in 2011 and two in 2012, during which I talked about the goals of my work. We began more extensive conversations in 2013 and 2014. The discussions focused on identifying potential giving structures such as donor advice funds and how to enroll individuals he claimed were interested in making"], [9458, 12, 9, "Page 10", null, null, "significant contributions. I made it clear to Epstein from the outset that he would never play a role in any of the work or receive any compensation. In 2014, after Epstein brought together a group he described as potential donors, I realized that our prior discussions, which should have translated into meaningful philanthropic support, were a dead end. It was clear that no one in the group was interested enough to move forward. At that point, I concluded Epstein would never deliver on his promises. I told him we would go no further and stopped communicating or meeting with him. No vehicle for charitable giving was ever created and no funds were raised. Our interactions ended in December 2014, 4 years before new reports in the press and unsealed court documents shed additional light on the extent of his crimes. It was during the same time period that an employee was in the process of transitioning out of my private office. This employee engaged Epstein to negotiate and advise him on the terms of the separation. I did not ask nor did I want or need Epstein to be involved in this matter. His involvement resulted in email exchanges, calls, and meetings with members of my team and me. However, the agreement we ultimately reached was not any different from what was previously agreed upon months in advance of Epstein inserting himself. It was after this that I learned Epstein had become aware of sensitive information about my personal life, including the fact that I had been unfaithful in my marriage. These affairs had nothing to do with my interactions with Epstein, but they were painful for my family. As the public can now see based on what has been released in the files, Epstein was working to use information about my infidelities, in addition to many lies that he layered on top, to pressure me to reengage with him. He was unsuccessful in this effort, but it shows some of the ways he tried to leverage his interactions with me to further his agenda. I should never have met with Epstein in the first place. Based on what I know now, I understand that even if he had delivered the donors he promised, it would not have justified associating with him. I see now that he sought to build an image of legitimacy around himself using"], [9459, 12, 10, "Page 11", null, null, "connections to reputable and powerful people to deflect scrutiny and attempt to rehabilitate his reputation. I was so focused on the possibility of raising funds for global health that I allowed that goal to override my better judgment. That is a sobering realization and it has reinforced for me the importance of being more attentive to how access and reputation can be manipulated by people acting in bad faith. In the work I do, reputation is the basis for developing partnerships that save lives. Meeting with Epstein was a grave error in judgment and put this work at risk. His behavior was antithetical to all my efforts to contribute to a world where everyone has a chance to live a healthy and productive life. If the time I spent with Epstein lent him credibility, I am deeply sorry. I've learned a significant lesson and am now far more careful about who I engage with, even in a limited capacity. I look forward to answering all your questions about my interactions with Epstein and the topics identified in the Chairman's invitation to appear today. The Committee's work is essential. It is my sincere hope that those harmed by Epstein's crimes will receive the justice they deserve. Thank you. Mr. Spectre. Thank you, Mr. Gates. We've had a couple of extra members join. Starting with the majority, can you please introduce yourself for the record? Ms. Boebert. Lauren Boebert. Mr. Burlison. Eric Burlison. Mr. Lynch. Congressman Steve Lynch, Eighth Congressional District of Massachusetts. Mr. Spectre. Thank you. The time reads 10:15, and the majority's time will begin now. EXAMINATION BY MR. SPECTRE: Q Mr. Gates, I want to thank you again for coming here voluntarily to answer our"], [9460, 12, 11, "Page 12", null, null, "questions today. I want to start by very, very briefly discussing your background. I know, of course, you've had a very long and very, very successful career, but can you provide the Committee with a very brief summary of your career up until now? A Yeah. I was born in 1955. I went to high school in Seattle, graduated. I attended Harvard College for a few years, but did not complete a degree. I founded Microsoft in 1975. I stayed as CEO of Microsoft through the year 2000. I stayed as chief technical adviser through 2008. So 2008 ended my full-time work at Microsoft. Overlapping that, I created the Gates Foundation in the year 2000, so I gave a substantial gift of Microsoft stock in the year 2000. And so between 2000 and 2008, I was full-time Microsoft, part-time Gates Foundation. 2008, I ceased my full-time work at Microsoft and began full time as chairman of the Gates Foundation. And since 2008 that's been my primary effort. I still give some advice to Microsoft. I have some energy innovation work under the term Breakthrough Energy, but my full-time work is the work of the Gates Foundation, which involves areas like education, global health, agriculture, financial services, and so that's my primary work today. I turned 70 last year. Q Thank you. And to be clear, do you hold any official positions at any of your other -- do you currently hold any positions at any of your other ventures besides the Gates Foundation? A Yeah. I have some title with Breakthrough Energy. I'm not sure what that is. I have an entity called Gates Ventures that is my private office, and I have a group that manages investments on my behalf and the foundation trust's behalf called Cascade. So I think that that's all of my official roles. Q Thank you. And we'll get more, of course, into your interactions with Mr. Epstein a little bit later. But just to be clear for the record, your opening statement indicated that your relationship with him, your interactions with him occurred between 2011 and 2014 -- late 2014. Is that right? A That's right."], [9461, 12, 12, "Page 13", null, null, "Q So for the entirety of that time, you were -- your primary role was at the Gates Foundation. Is that right? A Yeah. I mean, I was doing the whole mix of things I do, but, yes, at all times since 2008 that's been my primary role. Q And you were not -- you didn't have a formal job at Microsoft during the time you knew Mr. Epstein. Is that right? A No. Q And at this point philanthropy is your full-time endeavor. Is that right? A That's right. For some of the energy innovation work, I use private investment vehicles and even the foundation itself often uses investments as part of its overall strategy, but the work -- the aim of the work is philanthropic. Q Thank you. And, again, we'll get deeper into this a little bit later, but I just want to do a high level -- Mr. Lynch. We can hear the question -- we can hear the answer. We can't hear the questions at all. Thank you. Mr. Emmer. We've had another member join. Can they please announce themselves for the record? Mr. Timmons. William Timmons, South Carolina Fourth Congressional District. BY MR. SPECTRE: Q Mr. Gates, when did you first meet Jeffrey Epstein? A It was in January 2011 that I had a dinner with him. Q And was that at Mr. Epstein's home? A His home in New York, yes. Q Can you describe the circumstances that led you to attending that dinner? A Dr. Nikolic, who worked for me, said that since I was out in New York I might be"], [9462, 12, 13, "Page 14", null, null, "interested in having a dinner with him, and so that got scheduled. Q He said you might be interested in it. Did he say why you might be interested in it? A He probably gave me a brief description that -- about Epstein. Q Do you recall what that description entailed? A No, I do not. Q What did you discuss in your first interaction with Mr. Epstein? A You know, it was a dinner that I would have talked about what I was doing. He would have mentioned a number of scientists and people that he spent time talking to. You know, it was kind of an introductory dinner that I don't remember all the specifics. Q So he was sort of giving you an outline of the powerful people he knew? Is that what you mean by that? A More intellectual, you know, professors or science people, as well as some business leaders. I don't know if it was that night or some other time, but he did talk about that he provided advice to lots of billionaires. Q Do you recall any specific names that he mentioned to you? A Not at that time. You know, he talked about Wall Street billionaires, he talked about Middle East billionaires. He made it sound very extensive. Q Did you get the sense that he was offering you some kind of service? A No. Q Why do you think he was telling you about these people he worked with? A Maybe for me to have a good impression of him. You know, at some point, I don't think that first night, the idea that some of those people might give money to global health came up. Q I know you said you don't recall exactly the description that Dr. Nikolic gave you about Mr. Epstein, but do you recall what, if anything, you knew about Mr. Epstein in general before you met him for the first time?"], [9463, 12, 14, "Page 15", null, null, "A I was aware that he had a criminal conviction. Q How were you aware of that? A I'm not sure. Either I looked it up or somebody told me. Q Did Dr. Nikolic tell you that? A I'm not sure. Q Do you recall knowing at that time what the criminal conviction was for? A I knew that it was of a sexual nature, but, no, I don't think I knew -- dug into the specifics, although I probably should have. Q Would you normally look into people's backgrounds before you met with them? Was this an uncommon way of handling it? A I don't have a formal process for people I meet. Q Did you ask Mr. Epstein about this conviction at that time? A I did not bring it up during that dinner. Q And he didn't bring it up either? A No. Q Did anyone ever raise concerns to you about Mr. Epstein with regard to that conviction or anything else in 2011? A Well, throughout the time I spent with Epstein, the concern about his reputation was voiced by me and by other people, so there was an awareness that he had a bad reputation stemming from his criminal conviction. Q And are you saying you were aware of these concerns early on or are you describing conversations that occurred later in your relationship with Mr. Epstein? A I'd say both. Q So you were aware he had a bad reputation and he had some sort of sex-related conviction at the time you first entered into contact with him?"], [9464, 12, 15, "Page 16", null, null, "A That's right. Q What were your first impressions of Mr. Epstein? A Well, he talked about a lot of scientists that he would talk to or business leaders he would talk to, and he made that sound fairly extensive, you know, across a wide range of topics. So he seemed like he was a bit of a dilettante. Q What do you mean by that? A Somebody who focuses time on a large number of subject areas and new people who are deeply engaged in those areas. Q So he made a good impression? A You know, he's kind of a unique person even, you know, based on the limited knowledge I have -- had at the time. It was kind of a unique thing to have this large house in Manhattan and to mention quite a wide range of people from both business and academic areas. I would say, you know, I thought he was unusual. Q Who else was with you at this first dinner you had with Mr. Epstein in 2011? A For the dinner itself, just Dr. Nikolic. Q Were other people traveling with you for that? Is that what you meant? A No. Q So at the dinner, you were with Dr. Nikolic, Mr. Epstein, and nobody else was at the dinner? A That's right. Q What did you understand his job or career to be when you met him? A I'm not sure if it was that night, but over time, he suggested that he provided tax advice and advice on wills to a wide variety of people, both from Wall Street, from the Middle East, you know, that he was in a position of trust with a number of wealthy people. Q And you said you didn't get the sense he was offering you any kind of service, so he"], [9465, 12, 16, "Page 17", null, null, "wasn't offering you tax or estate services of any kind? A No. There came a time later where he brought up that, you know, he could help on taxes, and I rather sternly rebuffed that effort. Q Sure. And we can get more into that a little bit later. So at this point, meeting him for the first time in 2011, did you understand him to already be wealthy at that point? A Well, certainly the -- you know, the -- just the house alone represented a significant amount of wealth. I'd never seen -- I don't think to this day I've seen a private house in Manhattan that's quite that spacious. Q Did you have any idea at that time how he had acquired his money? A No. To this day, I find that a bit confusing. Q And, again, we'll get a little bit deeper into your interactions with Mr. Epstein later, but just for now, could you briefly characterize the nature of the relationship that you had with Mr. Epstein between 2011 and 2014? Was he a friend? Was he a business associate? A No, he certainly wasn't a friend. You know, he made an effort to extend the relationship with various invitations, but, you know, he -- eventually, you know, as I talked about my work in global health for the Gates Foundation, he suggested that he could raise substantial amounts of money from people that he knew to help with that endeavor, and that became the primary focus out in 2013. 2011, we just had, you know, two dinners, one where it was with Jes Staley and Larry Summers, one where he was just dropping by. So, you know, three encounters in 2011. Then over a year passes and I see him twice in late 2012. And then it's in I think spring 2013 where this purported availability of people who when they would sit and talk about their wills, their taxes, that as part of that process they would realize they had a significant amount of excess money and hopefully they would want to give that philanthropically and hopefully they would consider giving that to global health. And so he -- that became the focus in spring of 2013. Q So you said he would give invitations for things. Were these social functions or"], [9466, 12, 17, "Page 18", null, null, "philanthropic or otherwise? A No, they weren't social. I mean, there was one time at the end of a dinner, David Blaine came, and so that was a lighter thing. He's a magician. But the meetings were always about the world and, you know, what was going on. Obviously, when somebody like Larry Summers or Jes Staley is there, they're talking about what they see in the world, what they expect, so it's a wide ranging discussion. Q So did you ever socialize with Jeffrey Epstein? A Not -- no, I would not say I was socializing with him. I was at a dinner where a wide range of serious topics came up. When he, for example, invited me to come to his island, that would have been socializing, and that -- I didn't do that. You know, one time in Paris he asked me to go to a show and I said that would not be a good idea. I chose not to do that. Q So he did invite you to a couple of social functions and you just rejected them? A He did many things to try and deepen the relationship, including the various invitations. Q Did you ever discuss sexual behavior of any kind with Jeffrey Epstein? A No. Q Did you ever witness Jeffrey Epstein engaging in sexual contact of any kind? A No. Q Did you ever witness Epstein receive a massage from a young woman or a girl? A No. Q Were there often young women or girls at the places where you would meet with Epstein? A No. The only time anyone who was I'd call a girl was around was, after that first dinner, Eva Dubin came and she had her daughter with her. Other than that, there were no young women at any of the times I saw Epstein. Q So none of his -- a number of Epstein's employees, we understand, were younger"], [9467, 12, 18, "Page 19", null, null, "women. Did you ever meet any of those people? A I was not introduced to them, but, you know, like, when you go to the New York thing, I think they open the door. Jeffrey -- Mr. Epstein had what appeared to be administrative assistants with him, and the extent of my contact with them was that, you know, they were there. As I would go into a meeting, they never attended any meeting that I was in. There were several occasions where Mr. Epstein asked me to be photographed with them at the end of the meeting. I was not introduced to them as part of that. That was quite brief. One of the admins stayed when David Blaine did one of his tricks, so she was standing around then. And there was also a time when I took a flight from Newark to Palm Beach and Jeffrey had two admin assistants with him who sat in the front cabin, but so I saw them as I walked on to the plane and as I walked off of the plane. And so other than the admins who were around, you know, who appeared to be women, I believe they did not look to be underage. I think I fully described any contact with the women around Epstein. Q Thank you. Did you ever engage in sexual contact of any kind in the presence of Jeffrey Epstein? A No. Q Did you ever engage in sexual contact with a person introduced to you by or affiliated with Jeffrey Epstein? A No. Q Did Jeffrey Epstein or any of his associates ever offer you a young woman or girl for the purposes of sex? A No. Q Did you ever receive a massage that was arranged by Jeffrey Epstein or any of his staff or associates? A No."], [9468, 12, 19, "Page 20", null, null, "Q We already discussed that you are aware that he had been convicted of a sex crime, but to be clear, at that time were you aware that he was a registered sex offender? A I was not. Q Do you recall when you first learned that he was a registered sex offender? A You know, my -- it's really 2018 when a Miami newspaper described the sort of extensive and horrific details of what he had done before his 2008, 2009 conviction that I became aware of the extent of his crimes, and I believe that's when I first knew that he'd actually registered as a sex offender. Q And so you ended your relationship with Mr. Epstein in late 2014, as you've mentioned today, and you just said you learned that he was a sex offender and more of the extent of his crimes in 2018. To be clear, did you have any interactions with Mr. Epstein after 2014? A I did not. Q Did you have any communications with Mr. Epstein directly or through an intermediary during that time? A Yeah. Right after 2014, there was an email he sent to me -- after 2014, I read -- he sent me quite a bit of emails. The majority of emails he sent to me, actually, were after I'd cut off all contact. Most of those I did not read, but in the early period, there were some that I did read. One of those sought reimbursement for what he purported was expenses that he paid with a woman who he became aware of was a woman who I'd had an affair with. And I communicated to my key person, top person at Gates Ventures, Larry Cohen, that we were never going to pay anything. And so in that sense, I did have indirect communication with him, and I think that was in the months after I cut off direct contact. Q Okay. We'll get into that a little bit more later, but just a few questions about that. So this person that you had had the affair with, is that Mila Antonova? A Yes."], [9469, 12, 20, "Page 21", null, null, "Q And so you said you directed your staff to not reimburse Mr. Epstein for the payments he was requesting. They were, you said, reimbursements for expenses he was covering for Ms. Antonova. Is that right? A That's what he represented. Q Why would he want you to reimburse him for that? A You know, I viewed it as a tactic to reengage with me. I'd never asked him to do anything with respect to the person we're discussing, so I was rather surprised. That was the first time I knew explicitly that he'd become aware of that affair. Q So you did not know until -- I'm sorry, so this was in 2014 that we're discussing now? A Yeah. Late 2014, maybe into early 2015 where he's seeking reimbursement. Q So you did not know until late 2014 or early 2015 that Jeffrey Epstein was aware of any of your affairs or just this affair? A In the termination or exit discussion relative to Dr. Nikolic, which is as early as I think spring 2013, Mr. Epstein made some veiled references that made me wonder whether he had become aware, which, you know, the only way I can imagine that would have happened was through Dr. Nikolic, of either one or two affairs that I'd had that Dr. Nikolic was aware of. But until the specific reimbursement requests, it was a veiled type of thing where he would say, you know, we should all want to remain friends. Q Do you know what exactly the expenses he had paid for for Ms. Antonova were? A I have no idea. You know, he -- he wasn't an honest person, so understanding did he pay those expenses or not, I have no knowledge. Q And we'll talk a little bit more about that a little bit later, so we can go ahead and move along. Mr. Emmer. We've had another member join. Can you please announce himself for the record?"], [9470, 12, 21, "Page 22", null, null, "Mr. Walkinshaw. James Walkinshaw, 11th District of Virginia. Mr. Spectre. Thank you, Mr. Gates. And, again, we'll come back to some of those topics. And my apologies, we're probably going to bounce around a little bit. We're going to try to have some sort of -- some semblance of chronology here. Mr. Emmer. We've had another member join. Can he please announce himself for the record? Mr. Burlison. Congressman Eric Burlison, Missouri. BY MR. SPECTRE: Q So we've already begun talking about Dr. Nikolic, but for the record, who is Dr. Nikolic? A Dr. Nikolic, he is a person who worked at the Gates Foundation on the diagnostic strategy for a period, then he left the Gates Foundation and came to work in my private office, which was one time called bgC3. It's been renamed to Gates Ventures. It's the same private office. So he worked there as -- I think his title was science adviser, from something like 2010 until through -- when was his last day? End of 2013? Yeah, until the end of 2013. Q And just very briefly because we're going to be discussing his employment dispute, but why did he leave his employment at the end of 2013? Just briefly. Did you fire him? Did he resign? What exactly occurred? A Dr. Nikolic, when he worked for me, had decided that he wanted to become a venture capitalist, and so he had said, hey, you know, working for you, I can just make a salary, I understand about biotech companies, which ones are going to be successful. I think both in terms of impact and making money, that's where I should go. And so more than a year before he left, we talked about that. I said, you know, why don't you stay another year, you can make some -- up to three investments during the time you're with me, you know, sort of a practice venture capital-type investment, and we'll share the profit of those investments."], [9471, 12, 22, "Page 23", null, null, "So Dr. Nikolic, you know, had decided that he was moving on and going to venture capital. His actual exit was somewhat accelerated by the fact that I shared with my wife at the time that he was aware of affairs that I had, and she and I discussed that I should probably have him leave sooner rather than later. So that was a factor in terms of the timing of his exit. Q So, in summary, he was already -- kind of had, you know, one foot out the door to some degree, but it was accelerated by this disclosure of your affairs to your then wife Melinda French Gates. Is that right? A That's right. I mean, I don't know what would have happened if I hadn't given him the opportunity to make the investments, and he was sort of saying that he wanted to go and do that, and so I think I extended the amount of time he stayed with me by letting him make up to three investments. Q Would you say that Dr. Nikolic was one of your closest advisers? A I have a lot of advisers, but he, as my science adviser at Gates Ventures, he was a valuable adviser to me. Q Did you see him as purely a professional? Was it purely a professional relationship or was he a friend to you as well? A That was a professional relationship. I mean, where you draw the line there, I was friendly with Dr. Nikolic, but I did not socialize with him. He didn't come to my house, I didn't go to his house. Q When was the last time you communicated with Dr. Nikolic? A Many years ago. Q Can you give me an estimate? Was it in 2014 when he left employment or was it after that? A There was a MIT advisory committee for some of the work the foundation was doing with MIT, and he stayed on that committee for, I think, a year after he left, and that was probably the"], [9472, 12, 23, "Page 24", null, null, "last direct communication I had with him was in those couple of years where he stayed on the advisory committee, and no communication since then. Q We've already discussed Mr. Nikolic -- Dr. Nikolic, of course, introduced you to Mr. Epstein. So, in your words, can you characterize Dr. Nikolic's relationship with Mr. Epstein or at least your understanding of their relationship? A Well, during the time I knew Epstein, I thought it was a -- just he had met him before I had and that he was kind of organizing the visits that took place. In looking at the email documents that came out in January, to my surprise, I now see that he had quite an extensive relationship with Mr. Epstein. So I was not aware of that at all during the time that I met with Epstein 2011 to 2014. Q Are you aware that Dr. Nikolic was ultimately named in one of -- in Mr. Epstein's final will and testament? A I've seen that in the press. Q So you learned about that much later in the press? A I hope it's an accurate thing. It was a press report that mentioned that. Q But you have no firsthand knowledge of that? A None. Q Did that surprise you when you read it? A A lot. [Gates Majority Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.] BY MR. SPECTRE: Q I'd like to enter into the record majority exhibit 1, which is an email that Epstein sent to Dr. Nikolic on June 16th, 2013. The bates number on this document is EFTA00873874. And just for the record, all of the Bates numbers that begin with EFTA are documents that the Department of Justice released pursuant to the Epstein Files Transparency Act."], [9473, 12, 24, "Page 25", null, null, "I will give you a second to look at it, but I will note that I'll be reading much of or all of it into the record, so you don't need to read the entire thing. The first question is, have you seen these emails before? A Yeah, okay. I mean, I may have seen these when they came in out January, but not before that. Q So you don't recall ever seeing these emails prior to the Epstein Files Transparency Act released by the DOJ? A I did not. Q In the first email, so the email at the bottom of the page, that is an email from Mr. Epstein. Context clues from the rest of the document indicate that that was sent to Boris Nikolic but, of course, that is redacted on the document. He sent it to Boris on Sunday, June 16th, at 12:02. It reads, \"to me,\" and then it looks like a draft of a statement or an email that says, \"Bill, I am in tears as I write this. I have barely slept for 3 days. I am devastated beyond words. I find myself losing my best friend and my career all in one day by no fault of my own. As your friend, I suggest you carefully reconsider your alternatives. If Melinda decides to file for divorce, I will, of course, stand by you and help any way I can. I want to see you happy, truly. Difficult choices no matter what. As you know, I'm going in for a delicate surgery on my eyes on Tuesday. This timing could not be worse. I will be totally out of it for a few days. I hope you are able to convince Melinda to allow me to continue doing my job, a job you described as I could not have done better. I hope to ask her face-to-face to change her mind. I have done nothing wrong.\" And the email continues, but just for the record there, in 2013 when this email was sent, were you and your then wife Melinda considering a divorce? A No. Q Why would Mr. Epstein or Dr. Nikolic be under the impression that you were? A Well, I never would have discussed anything relating to that subject with Mr. Epstein. I"], [9474, 12, 25, "Page 26", null, null, "told Boris -- Dr. Nikolic, sorry -- that I'd shared the information about the two affairs, and he may have thought, you know, that meant our marriage was at risk. It was certainly a deeply troubling thing for my wife, but the -- at this time there was not a -- any discussion of divorce. Q It seems in this draft that's written from Dr. Nikolic's perspective that he may have believed that Melinda was the one who wanted him to leave his job, and I think you characterized it earlier as kind of a back-and-forth discussion with your then wife. Was it Melinda's discussion to ask Dr. Nikolic to accelerate his departure or was it a mutual decision between the two of you? A It was a mutual decision. I agreed with Melinda that having him leave pretty soon was the best thing, and so that's what I did. And that was a quicker departure than would have happened otherwise. Q I'll continue reading the draft email. It continues, \"However, I recognize the fact that it might not be possible at this time. I also realize I will need a lawyer to review any agreement we might enter into, but I don't trust any with so much sensitive info. I have asked Jeffrey to oversee and negotiate for me and have given him power of attorney to act on my behalf. He also needed to be my health proxy during my operation. I have informed him of all the details surrounding our dilemma. I trust him 100 percent. My communication with him is privileged. No worry. He has agreed to act as my financial and legal representative. You can trust him. He has dealt with very similar problems in the past. Obviously, he hasn't given me the details. I would greatly appreciate you and he talking directly. He does not know Larry and cannot be open with him. He doesn't like or trust PR people. This is a terrible circumstance in which we find ourselves, but I am confident of our friendship and I know you know how devoted I am to you.\" And I will say, I asked you if you've seen these emails before the release, but I'll be more specific. Have you seen any email or other type of message that is similar to that draft I just read to you? Did you receive something like that in 2013? A Never. Never anything even close."], [9475, 12, 26, "Page 27", null, null, "Q So Dr. Nikolic and Mr. Epstein are communicating about something that they might send to you, and it sounds like they didn't. Is that right? A I never received anything like that. Q In the second email, so the middle email that Dr. Nikolic writes back to Mr. Epstein at 12:12 on June 16th, 2013, Dr. Nikolic seems to say, \"this is great. My only worry is whether I should send him now or tell him when I see him on Monday. He is still trying to make it work with Melinda. He's having next round of negotiation with her next weekend. If all fails, then it is a negotiation for a next steps. If I send it right now, it reads that I accepted, it is all over. Finally, I can't put something such as divorce in an email. If she reads, she will go extra steps to be as nasty as possible. Also, I think that my chances of convincing him to talk to you are higher if I do it in person and not over the email. So how about hold this -- so how about you hold this for 8 days? Thank you, B.\" So sounds like Mr. Nikolic agrees with the perspective denoted in Mr. Epstein's draft and that he would be more interested, though, in having the conversation with you face-to-face. Did he have any sort of conversation with you face-to-face during this time like this? A But I've never seen this email so, I mean, you can ask me questions, but I add no value. Q So I guess I'll be more specific. The -- I understand you've testified you've not seen the email. Did Dr. Nikolic approach you and communicate these same feelings in person, so not over email? A No. Q In the draft email -- again, understanding that you have not seen it until much later -- Dr. Nikolic is implying that he has entrusted Jeffrey Epstein with sensitive information seemingly with relation to you and that he has given Epstein power of attorney to act on his behalf, that he will be his financial and legal representative. So were you aware that Jeffrey Epstein was going to be acting as a legal or financial representative for Dr. Nikolic?"], [9476, 12, 27, "Page 28", null, null, "A Well, he wasn't a lawyer, so I'm not sure how a nonlawyer becomes someone's legal representative. Eventually, Dr. Nikolic did communicate to me that he was involving Epstein in the discussion of the -- of Dr. Nikolic's exit, and he -- I forget exactly, but he sent -- he told me that he was involving Epstein. Q Again, you didn't receive this email, but it seems what they're trying to get across to you is that, while you're correct that Jeffrey Epstein was not, in fact, a lawyer, they are representing him to have some sort of privileged communication with Dr. Nikolic seemingly in a way to make it seem like the sensitive information that -- the sensitive information that Mr. Epstein knows about is privileged. Did you ever have a conversation like that with Dr. Nikolic? A No. How could it be privileged? Q I am just as confused as you are, but I guess what I'm asking is, did they represent to you that it could be privileged? A I told you that in terms of awareness of the affairs that I had, there was no explicit reference to that, but there was some what you would call veiled reference to it in the form of, hey, we should all want to be friends. It's only later when Epstein is talking about his reimbursements to a specific woman that I was aware that -- I became fully aware of that. There was a point in the discussions with Boris where I, you know, I said I'm not going to be influenced by what you might or might not know or say. But, again, this email is complete news to me. Q Okay. The top of the email, I won't read this entire one, but it -- it seems to imply that you had already given Dr. Nikolic some kind of offer, probably related to his departure. Had you already given Dr. Nikolic some kind of exit package or offer in June of 2013? A Yeah. There was a prior agreement about -- he ended up making two investments on our mutual behalf. You know, I'd authorized him to make three, but he made two. So there was, you know, putting into writing how we would handle his payment for his share of those, and then just the termination agreement. So that was all known before he engaged Epstein in the exit"], [9477, 12, 28, "Page 29", null, null, "discussions. [Gates Majority Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.] BY MR. SPECTRE: Q Okay. Thank you. I will now enter into the record majority exhibit 2, which is an email from Mr. Epstein to himself on July 18th, 2013. This is marked as Bates number EFTA01966988. And I'll note for the record that there are a few similar versions of these emails throughout the files, I think, with things being forwarded along. I'll be referencing this version and asking you questions about it. Some of the other ones are just cut off, so -- A I don't know what you mean \"forwarded along.\" Q The -- within the Epstein files, there are duplicates for various reasons, and I'm just referencing that I'm using this particular EFTA number for the record. A Okay. Mr. Emmer. And while you're reviewing, we've had more members and staff join. Can they please identify themselves for the record? Mr. Garcia. Robert Garcia, Ranking Member. , Representative Garcia. Mr. Krishnamoorthi. Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi from Illinois. BY MR. SPECTRE: Q Mr. Gates, have you seen this email before? A No. I mean, I would have seen it when it was released in January as part of the Epstein files, but prior to that, no. Q So this appears to be a draft email or statement that Epstein may have written -- he at least sent it to himself -- from the perspective of Dr. Nikolic. Is that fair? A I add no value to that."], [9478, 12, 29, "Page 30", null, null, "Q Well, can we agree that this is not the perspective of Jeffrey Epstein? It's clearly written from the perspective of somebody else. Is that fair? A You're asking me to speculate on this? Q So I will read it into the record then. It is, again, sent Thursday, July 18th, 2013, at 12:39, from Jeffrey Epstein to himself. However, the email reads, quote, \"I have decided to resign my position effective immediately with BG3 and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. I have not come to this decision quickly or without a great deal of thought. During the past few weeks, I have been caught up in a severe marital dispute between Melinda and Bill.\" I will stop reading there for a second. But given majority exhibit 1 which we were just discussing and the fact that Mr. Epstein and Dr. Nikolic were clearly discussing a marital dispute of some kind between you and Melinda, is it fair to say that this is a email that was intended to have been sent by Dr. Nikolic? A I don't know. It was never sent by Dr. Nikolic. That's all I bring to this. Q Sure. I can continue reading. \"I have the greatest respect for my friend of 7 years, and I wish them both well. In my role as his right hand, I have been asked on multiple occasions and, in hindsight, wrongly acquiesced into participating in things that have ranged from the morally inappropriate to the ethically unsound and had been repeatedly asked to do other things that get near and potentially over the line into the illegal. Though it was kindly suggested that I make a transition to a new position after my 6 years of service and that Bill would, in his words, give me a generous package, I feel it would be dishonest to myself and my future from helping Bill to get drugs in order to deal with consequences of sex with Russian girls, to facilitating his illicit trysts with married women, to being asked to provide Adderall for bridge tournaments. I feel I owe it to my friends and future colleagues to admit a moral failure, to ask forgiveness, and to move on with my life.\""], [9479, 12, 30, "Page 31", null, null, "[11:00 a.m.] BY MR. SPECTRE: Q So again, I understand you did not receive this email, so I'll just begin to discuss the facts in the email. I've already asked you this, I asked you if you had been considering a divorce with Melinda in 2013. I'll ask it a different way, were you having a marital dispute of some kind with your then wife Melinda French Gates. A Well, certainly the fact that I told Melinda during this time frame about the two affairs, that was very distressing to her, but at that time there was no explicit mention of getting divorced. It may have occurred to Melinda at that point, but it was not a subject of discussion. Q But you were having a marital dispute at the time. Is that fair? A I wouldn't call it a marital dispute. You could say it was a marital crisis because she became aware of bad behavior on my part. Q Sure. Was this dispute that is referenced in this email -- or how about this -- A I have no idea. Q Sure. The discussions you had with Melinda at that time about your infidelity, were those ultimately relevant to your divorce in 2021? A You would have to ask her, but I imagine that they were, yes. Q How did Dr. Nikolic know of your marital -- of your dispute with Melinda? A I never discussed that topic with him. I did tell him that I -- she was aware of the affairs, and that I shared with her that he was also aware of the affairs. Q When did you tell Melinda about the affairs? A That would have been in the spring of 2013. Q And when did you tell Dr. Nikolic that you had told Melinda about the affairs? A Around the same time. Q Shortly thereafter?"], [9480, 12, 31, "Page 32", null, null, "A Right. And, you know, that was part of my telling him that his employment was not going to continue. Q So is it possible, then, that Dr. Nikolic, while you didn't tell him that you were -- you didn't say you were considering a divorce, as you said, you weren't, but is it possible that Dr. Nikolic read into what you were telling him to believe that Melinda was the reason he was being let go and that he needed to fix things with you. Is that fair? A Well, it's not clear to me that Dr. Nikolic ever saw these emails. But, you know, Dr. Nikolic may have inferred from the fact that I said that I, you know, discussed the affairs, he may have speculated about what that was doing in terms of my marriage. Q Do you have any other suggestion of how Jeffrey Epstein would know about your affairs, or the other details in this email, except for through Dr. Nikolic? A I believe he found out about the two affairs through Dr. Nikolic. Mr. Moran. And just to be clear, you asked about the other details. Mr. Gates. Yeah, I'm not commenting on that. BY MR. SPECTRE: Q Sure. A I believe that he found out about the affairs through Dr. Nikolic. Q Did you ever ask Dr. Nikolic to do anything morally inappropriate or unethically unsound? A Well, he was involved -- he knew that I had spent time with the women I had affairs with, so only in that sense. Q How did he know that? A You know, one time it was a scheduling thing, when we were in London where I -- I said to him I was going to disappear and wanted him to show that I was meeting with him at that time. Q So you used him as an alibi to meet with a woman. Is that fair?"], [9481, 12, 32, "Page 33", null, null, "A That's correct. Q Did he know the name of the woman at the time? A At some point I mentioned the name, yes. Q Did you ever ask Dr. Nikolic to do anything that was potentially illegal? A No. Q Did Dr. Nikolic ever assist you in acquiring drugs? A No. Q Did you ever ask him to acquire you drugs? A No. Q Was Dr. Nikolic a medical doctor? A I think he was a research doctor. Q Did he have prescribing authority, do you know? A I don't understand that. Q To be clear, you don't understand the question, or you don't understand prescribing authority? A I'm not sure whether he had prescribing authority. It never came up. Q So do you have any guesses as to why Dr. Nikolic or Jeffrey Epstein believed that you had asked Dr. Nikolic to acquire drugs for you? A I don't have any awareness that Dr. Nikolic ever saw this email. Is that -- are you suggesting he did? Q I'm asking you if you have any context you can share of why either Epstein or Nikolic believed that. A I don't. Q You've already acknowledged that you engaged in infidelity. We have discussed one of the two, one of the two women that you've acknowledged. Who is the second woman?"], [9482, 12, 33, "Page 34", null, null, "A Her name is Karima Nigmatulina. Mr. Moran. And I'll just say as we go forward, you know, as you've seen, Mr. Gates is here addressing obviously very sensitive topics with the committee as they relate to Jeffrey Epstein. We know there's also a lot of public interest in the details of these private affairs that aren't pertinent to Jeffrey Epstein who had no involvement in those other than learning about them after the fact. And so, Mr. Gates will probably seek to decline to divulge details that are not related to Jeffrey Epstein, as is his right. But as you've seen, so far he's here to answer the committee's questions, and we appreciate that the committee has handled this sensitively. Mr. Spectre. Thank you. BY MR. SPECTRE: Q Were both of these women Russian? A Yes. Q Again, the draft email, which I understand you have not seen, refers to sex with Russian girls. Just for the record, how old were these two women during the time of your affairs, roughly? A One was in her 20s. One was in her 30s. Q So they were both adults? A Yes. Mr. Emmer. We have had another member join, can he please announce himself for the record? Mr. Burchett. Tim Burchett, Tennessee's 2nd District. BY MR. SPECTRE: Q Did you also engage in, again, the email refers to, quote, elicit trysts with married women, did you have any other affairs besides these two women that we've just discussed? A The only affairs that Dr. Nikolic were aware of were the two that we've discussed. Q But there were other extramarital affairs?"], [9483, 12, 34, "Page 35", null, null, "A None with any connection to Epstein that he became aware of, or that had any connection to him. Q How do you know that? A I guess I'll never know that because he's dead. Q So that's the reason I'm asking about these other ones is you've already testified today that you didn't know that these two women did have any affiliation with Jeffrey Epstein, and many of these details we've only since learned from the Department of Justice's release. So I do think additional context about any other extra marital affairs, especially during the time period you knew Jeffrey Epstein, are relevant to the committee's inquiry? Mr. Moran. With respect, I'm able to say Mr. Gates is in the best position to help the committee understand what was connected to Mr. Epstein, and I think he's done his best to do that. BY MR. SPECTRE: Q So Dr. Nikolic knew of the two affairs with these two Russian women and that's it? A Yes. Q Did you ever contract a sexually transmitted infection during any of your extra marital affairs? A No. Q Not in these two, or any potential other ones? A No. Q Do you have any guess as to why Dr. Nikolic or Jeffrey Epstein may have believed that you did? A Maybe they thought that was a good way to blackmail someone. Q Did you have a scare of some kind and it turned out not to be a sexually transmitted infection? A I never had an STD."], [9484, 12, 35, "Page 36", null, null, "Q Did you ever communicate to Dr. Nikolic that you were worried that you might? A It's possible I said something like that, which later turned into the lie that I actually had an STD. Q Do you recall a specific discussion? A I do not. Q But it's possible that you did? A Yes. Q And again, for the record, you did not ask Dr. Nikolic in his capacity as a doctor, or in any other capacity, to acquire drugs, antibiotics of any kind? A No. He was not a prescribing doctor. Q Okay. Mr. Higgins, I understand you have a couple questions you would like to ask. Mr. Higgins. I have one question. Mr. Gates, you described the relationship as manipulation, betrayal, coercion, threat of blackmail, dishonesty, Dr. Nikolic was your closest associate, we understand. Have you come to believe that Dr. Nikolic conspired with Jeffrey Epstein prior to your dinner meeting in 2011 and planned, to some extent, an effort to draw you into the Epstein web? Has that come to be your perception of what happened? Mr. Gates. I don't know what you mean by web. I have said that -- Mr. Higgins. The Epstein web of deceitful manipulation, and seeking power and leverage with people of wealth and influence across the world. Mr. Gates. Can you restate the question? It sounds very open-ended. Mr. Higgins. The question is, have you come to believe in retrospect, and in reading these emails that have been revealed, and some greatly surprise you, as you said, and having gone through that relationship and resisted efforts to draw you into more deeply social relationships, resisted efforts by Epstein to coerce you into allowing him into a deeper role with some things that you regretted doing in life, have you come to see that Dr. Nikolic -- do you believe that Dr. Nikolic"], [9485, 12, 36, "Page 37", null, null, "conspired or met with Epstein prior to your dinner meeting in 2011 and said, I think maybe I can get, I can get Bill in front of you and maybe we can draw him in? Mr. Gates. I don't believe that happened. Mr. Higgins. You don't believe that happened. Mr. Gates. No, I don't think Dr. Nikolic was part of the broad set of things that you described. Mr. Higgins. Okay. Thank you. That's my only question. Mr. Emmer. We've had another member join. Can he please announce himself for the record? Mr. McGuire. Congressman John McGuire, Virginia 5th District. Mr. Emmer. Thank you. BY MR. SPECTRE: Q Mr. Gates, we're coming up near the end of our hour, so I just want to ask a couple of brief questions to follow up on. So we've discussed the names of two women that you had affairs with. You've already said they were both Russian. I believe in previous press statements, other public statements you described one as a bridge player, and the other as a nuclear scientist, or something of the sort. Is that fair? A That's fair. Q And so was Mila, she was the bridge player? Is that correct? A Mila Antonova I met at a bridge tournament, and she was a serious bridge player. Q And Karima was the nuclear scientist. Is that right? A That's right. Q You described at least one instance of how Dr. Nikolic was aware of your infidelity, and it related to a meeting, a meet-up that you had in London, I believe you said. Was it the bridge player, or was it the nuclear scientist that you were meeting up with at that time?"], [9486, 12, 37, "Page 38", null, null, "A That was the nuclear scientist. Q How did Dr. Nikolic come to learn of the bridge player? A There was a time after I finished a dinner in California where the bridge player was meeting me, and because I was delayed, Dr. Nikolic met her and stood with her, was with her until I arrived. Q So once Dr. Nikolic had become aware of each of these two affairs, was this something -- what was the situation between the two of you? Was it the kind of thing where you knew he knew, and he knew that you knew that he knew, but did you talk about it? Did you talk about it openly, or was it just like you both knew the situation and chose not to talk about it? A I don't remember talking about it until, you know, during the exit period, as I said, there were the veiled illusions, and I in an email took that on very directly. Q Again, we've already discussed sort of potential for other extra marital affairs, but just to be clear for the record, is it your testimony that you had no other romantic or sexual relationships with any woman associated with Jeffrey Epstein? A That's right. Q And I asked you how you knew that, and you said you could never really be sure. Is that your testimony as well? A No. I'm sorry. Go back. Q I asked you how you knew that no other woman you may have had a sexual or romantic relationship with had any connection to Jeffrey Epstein. I asked you how you were sure about that, and you said, Well, you guess you can't be sure. Is that right? A I'm quite sure. Q How? A You know, I think that Epstein, when he was writing emails to himself, took every potential negative thing he knew, and some that are completely false, and he put those into draft"], [9487, 12, 38, "Page 39", null, null, "emails to himself. And as we see from the email release, the only specific things he refers to are the affair with the nuclear scientist, and the affair with the bridge player. And so I think if in some weird way he discovered anything negative to say about me, we would have seen that in the emails that he sent to himself. Mr. Spectre. Thank you very much. We can go off the record. Mr. Clare. If I could, before we do that, if I could just offer one thing. Mr. Spectre. Sure. Mr. Clare. For the committee's benefit. This line of questioning has been about these emails that Epstein sent to himself, and obviously there's a lot of interest in how those things came about. In the course of preparing for this hearing, and working with Mr. Gates, we did identify a situation where Epstein did send an email to himself purporting to memorialize something that Mr. Gates said, completely unrelated to this topic of affairs, but we do see within hours of Mr. Epstein receiving an email from Mr. Gates, Epstein drafting one of these emails to himself purporting to memorialize it and changing significantly the substance of it. And so it may shed light, and if the committee is interested, I'm happy to provide those Bates numbers, and, you know, whether it's for today or another time, we would be happy to brief you on it, but it seems relevant to the question of what Epstein does when he drafts these emails to himself. The email, the authentic one that Mr. Gates sent to Epstein has the Bates number EFTA01936299, and then the email that is Epstein to Epstein that comes a few hours later where he is purporting to memorialize what Mr. Gates told him, but changing the substance of it, is EFTA01936283. So we leave that for the committee's consideration. Mr. Spectre. Thank you. We can go off the record. [Recess.] BY MR. Q And we can go on the record. Mr. Gates, good morning."], [9488, 12, 39, "Page 40", null, null, "A Good morning. Q My name is , I am an attorney for the minority, and I will be asking most of our questions today. In the course of doing so, I'm likely going to touch on some of the issues that my majority colleagues covered with you in the previous round. In doing so, I don't want to make you repeat yourself, I just want to make sure that we have a clear record at the end of this proceeding. Mr. Garcia. Can you speak into the microphone? Mr. . Sure. Is this better? BY MR. : Q Okay. Apologies. I'm going to start, if I could, by talking about a few of the individuals whom we understand have been connected with Microsoft, or with the Gates Foundation, and whom we understand had relationships with Jeffrey Epstein. You spoke at length with my majority colleagues about Mr. Nikolic. If I could start with him, just a couple of quick questions. Did he ever mention anything to you about Jeffrey Epstein's proclivity for young women, or for teenage girls? A No. Dr. Nikolic. Q Dr. Nikolic. Thank you. And did Dr. Nikolic ever mention anything to you about Jeffrey Epstein's sexual relationships with young women or girls? A No. Q The next individual I would like to ask you about is Steven Sinofsky. Who is Mr. Sinofsky? A Steven Sinofsky worked in senior engineering positions at Microsoft for a long time. Q And when did you meet Mr. Sinofsky? A Long time ago. Early in his Microsoft career, he served in a job as technical assistant to me."], [9489, 12, 40, "Page 41", null, null, "Q Did you become aware at some point that Mr. Sinofsky had a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein? A No. Q Did you ever become aware of Jeffrey Epstein providing professional services of any kind to Mr. Sinofsky? A Through the press this year. Q Not prior to that? A Not prior. Q Did Mr. Sinofsky ever mention anything to you about Jeffrey Epstein's proclivity for young women, or teenage girls? A We never -- the name Epstein ever came up in any conversation I had with Mr. Sinofsky. Q And as we understand, in April of 2013, Jeffrey Epstein was helping Mr. Sinofsky negotiate his exit package from Microsoft. Is that something that you were aware of? A Not at all. Q And then moving on to the next individual, Melanie Walker. And before I proceed with my questions, I'm going to ask the court reporter to mark as exhibit A a Wall Street Journal article of June 7th, 2026, titled, The Hidden Figure With Close Ties to Bill Gates and Jeffrey Epstein. Mr. Gates, I'm not going to ask you any questions about this article, but I understand that one or more of our members will later in the hour? A Okay. Q I just wanted to enter it into the record. [Gates Minority Exhibit A was marked for identification.] BY MR. Q Can you tell us, who is Melanie Walker?"], [9490, 12, 41, "Page 42", null, null, "A Dr. Walker worked at the Gates Foundation for a period, then she worked for the World Bank for a period. She's also an advanced brain surgeon. Q When did you first meet Dr. Walker? A Would have been when she was at the Gates Foundation. Q And when did she start working at the Gates Foundation? A I'm not sure. 2007. Something like that. I'm not sure. Q Were you aware at the time she started work at the Gates Foundation that she had a prior relationship with Jeffrey Epstein? A No, although she did send me mail after my first dinner with Epstein asking my impressions, so I was aware that she knew Epstein. Q And that was the first dinner you discussed earlier in 2011? A That's right. Q Did Dr. Walker ever mention anything to you about Jeffrey Epstein's proclivity for young women, or teenage girls? A No. Q I'm going to ask the court reporter to mark as exhibit B a text exchange. [Gates Minority Exhibit B was marked for identification.] BY MR. : Q It is from various dates in September 2017, Bates number EFTA01620736 through 742. And Mr. Gates, please take all the time you need to review this exhibit. I'm only going to be focusing on the last page that's Bates number 742. The names of the participants in this conversation don't appear in the document. We understand that they are Jeffrey Epstein and Dr. Walker. And looking at the page 742, the chat at the top reads, \"Larry will join my mtg tmr afternoon w BG at the bgC3 office -- Larry also invited two"], [9491, 12, 42, "Page 43", null, null, "junior staffers. Larry will not join and is not aware of other meetings. But he's starting to really get annoying. Are there any signals I can send or words I can use to let him and BG know I'm not messing around? Any words I can use w Larry directly or w him and BG.\" And right below we understand to be Jeffrey Epstein's response, \"With bg, all you would have to say, is you should know that I've told Jeffrey everything -- everything.\" Understanding that you were not a participant in this conversation, have you seen this exchange before? A Only when it was released as part of the Epstein files in January. Q Do you have any understanding as to what Jeffrey Epstein was referring to here by the word, \"everything\"? A I don't have any value to add here. Q And again, on the same page, the following text reads, \"I am worried he will immediately retaliate against me.\" And what we, again, understand to be Jeffrey Epstein's response, \"You can always say I also like blue dresses,\" colon, closed paren, which I take to be a smiley face emoji. Do you have any understanding as to what Mr. Epstein was referring to there by the reference blue dresses? A We can both speculate. Mr. . Can you speculate for us? In your opinion, what do you think they were referencing? Mr. Gates. It appears to be a reference to the Monica Lewinsky affair, or whatever you call it, with President Clinton. Mr. . And you have -- strike that. During your relationship with Mr. Epstein, did you two ever discuss a blue dress? Mr. Gates. No. BY MR. :"], [9492, 12, 43, "Page 44", null, null, "Q No further questions on this document. A Okay. Q Dr. Walker has reportedly claimed that Jeffrey Epstein introduced her to two professional contacts who sexually propositioned her. Are you familiar with Dr. Walker's claim? A Not at all. Q Did Dr. Walker ever warn you about Jeffrey Epstein? A Certainly not during the time I knew Mr. Epstein. Q The Wall Street Journal, I'll represent, reported that in August of 2014 Dr. Walker sent you what appeared to be a warning about Epstein stating that you should maintain, quote, a healthy distance for anything of a personal nature, unquote, when dealing with Jeffrey Epstein. Do you recall that email? A I do not. Are you sure you have the date correct? Q This is as reported by The Wall Street Journal, so I can't confirm their reporting, but that's what -- A Okay. Q And you don't recall Dr. Walker ever saying anything to you in that vein about Jeffrey Epstein? A Not during the time that I knew Epstein, no. Q Subsequent to the time that you knew Epstein? A You know, in 2017 his name may have come up, and I said the whole Epstein thing was confusing to me, and she didn't really shed much additional light on my confusion. Q What was the context of that discussion? A You know, she had left the employ of the Gates Foundation and was doing some scientific consulting work for me, and so during that time period it briefly came up. Q And when you said the Epstein situation was confusing to you, what were you referring"], [9493, 12, 44, "Page 45", null, null, "to by situation? A What was Epstein's thing, how did he make money, what was his -- what was he trying to do? To this day, I don't find a fully satisfactory explanation of, you know, how he got his wealth, and a variety of things. Q You spoke in some detail during the previous round about your various meetings with Jeffrey Epstein between 2011 and 2014. If I could, I would like to just walk through some of those in particular with you in a bit more detail using some documents that we have obtained. I will ask the court reporter to mark as exhibit C an email dated January 28th, 2011, with the subject line -- I'm sorry. With no subject line. [Gates Minority Exhibit C was marked for identification.] BY MR. : Q The text of the email reads, \"Hey,\" redacted, \"Bill Gates and Boris Nikolic is coming for dinner at 71st this Monday and Tuesday night. Both nights! JE asked if you could take off work to help work the dinner. It is only 3-4 people, but he would like you there. Does this work for you?\" And to our understanding, Mr. Gates, you are not on this email, but I'm interested in the reference to both nights. Do you recall meeting with Jeffrey Epstein on two consecutive nights in January? A I did not. Q So to your knowledge, to that extent, this email is inaccurate? A That's right. Q And just to be clear, the email refers to three to four people expected for one or both of those dinners. Is that the number of people you recall being there? A I think the January 31st dinner was during the dinner just myself, Dr. Nikolic and Mr. Epstein."], [9494, 12, 45, "Page 46", null, null, "Q And outside of the dinner, do you recall anyone else being present? A Yes. That's the time when Eva Dubin and her daughter dropped by after the dinner. Q I understand from your testimony in the previous rounds that Jeffrey Epstein extended an invitation for you to visit his island, Little Saint James. Is that correct? A I think on several occasions he did. Q And you never accepted that invitation? A I never did. Q And why was that? A It wasn't of interest to me. Q Was there something in particular that was off putting about the idea for you? A My time is quite valuable, and I didn't think it was interesting. It wasn't the kind of relationship we had. Mr. . Did he mention why he was inviting you to his island? Mr. Gates. I guess to expand our relationship, to have a social element to it. I'm not sure. Mr. . And to be clear, there was no specific purpose, it was to meet with Epstein, generally speaking, but there wasn't an event you were going to at his island? Mr. Gates. No. Or that I was invited to. Mr. You were invited to. Excuse me. Mr. Gates. I never went to the island. BY Mr. : Q Continuing chronologically, 2012, do you recall specific meetings with Jeffrey Epstein in 2012? A Yeah, I saw him for two dinners in the fall of 2012. Q Where did those dinners take place? A Both at his place in New York City."], [9495, 12, 46, "Page 47", null, null, "Q And can you tell us respectively who was in attendance at those two dinners? A Maybe I should look at a document to -- [Discussion off the record.] Mr. Gates. Okay. Sorry. Okay. Yeah, let me correct what I said. One of the 2012 meetings was at the New York City Four Seasons, and the other, during the General Assembly week, was at his residence. BY MR. : Q And refreshing your recollection based on the chronology you just looked at? A That's right. Q Can we start with the Four Seasons meeting, who was there? A I think that's another meeting where Eva Dubin and a friend of hers dropped by, but they were not part of the meeting. Q What to your understanding was Ms. Dubin's relationship to Jeffrey Epstein? A It appeared that they were friends. Q And then the second 2012 meeting was at Jeffrey Epstein's residence, if I understand correctly? A That's right. Q And who was in attendance at that meeting? A He brought along two Norwegians, one who's Terje Rod-Larsen, and the other is Jagland something. Q Something Norwegian? A Something Jagland. Q Anyone else? A I think Dr. Nikolic was at that dinner. Q What was the topic of discussion at that dinner?"], [9496, 12, 47, "Page 48", null, null, "A Well, you know, it was generally about the World. One of those men had been the number two at the United Nations, I think under Kofi Annan, and the other gentleman I think had been a Prime Minister of Norway, and various other political-type things. So the dinner would have discussed, you know, their views of the World. You know, I would have talked about my Foundation work, including things like Polio eradication. It was, you know, the first time that I met either of those two men. Q The Four Seasons dinner -- A Not dinner. Q Meeting. A Meeting. Q Meeting, what was the topic of discussion at that meeting? A I'm not sure that I recall the specifics of that. You know, I hadn't seen Epstein for well over a year, so I may have updated him on what I was up to. Q And then, again, proceeding chronologically, moving into 2013, do you recall specific meetings that you had with Jeffrey Epstein during that year? A I met with him that year, yes. Q Do you recall meeting with him at the Westin in California at some point during 2013? A No. Q No? If I could ask the court reporter to mark as Exhibit D an email, which we understand to have been prepared by one of Mr. Epstein's assistants containing his schedule from February and March 2013. [Gates Minority Exhibit D was marked for identification.] BY MR. : Q Mr. Gates, please take all the time you need to review this document. Once again, it's"], [9497, 12, 48, "Page 49", null, null, "not one in which you are a participant. A It looks like I may have had a Skype call with him at this time. Q During 2013? A Yes. Q Do you recall the subject of that Skype call? A I know in 2013, his representation that he could raise billions, or tens of billions for global health became a significant subject of discussion. Mr. . Was there anyone else on that call? Mr. Gates. I'm not sure. BY MR. Q And that call took place during a period of time where you still thought that Mr. Epstein might plausibly raise the sums that he was representing to you? A That's right. Through, you know, I would say September, I mistakenly took him at his word, then I became quite skeptical. But through September 2014, I was still hoping that it would -- that billions would be raised for global health. Q Referring back to Exhibit D, if I could, I would just like to walk through some of these entries which refer to you and meetings that you had, according to this document, with Jeffrey Epstein. So I'm looking at the top, the entry for Wednesday, February 27th, 2013, there is reference to an appointment from 2:00 to 3:30 p.m. with you at the Four Seasons. Do you recall having a meeting with Mr. Epstein at the Four Seasons on that date? [Discussion off the record.] Mr. Gates. Yeah. The only thing we show on February of that year, which, you know, my calendar is kept pretty precisely, all we show is a Skype call on, I believe, February 27th. Oh, no. Okay. We're in 2013."], [9498, 12, 49, "Page 50", null, null, "BY MR. : Q 2013. A That's funny because there was a Skype call in 2014 on February 27th, so I apologize. That confused me. No, it looks like there was a meeting at the Four Seasons on the 27th, and then a dinner later that night at Epstein's residence in New York City. Sorry. Q No problem. I appreciate the clarification. I'll walk through those in a moment. Just for clarity of the record, the Skype call that we discussed a few minutes ago, that took place during February of 2014? A That's right. And I looked and saw February 27th and I thought that must be it, but that's just a mistake I made. February 27th, what my calendar shows, and I'm sure it's correct, is that I met with him at the Four Seasons during the day, and that there was a dinner at his house that night. Q Okay. So with respect to the Four Seasons' meeting on February 27th of 2013, who, other than yourself, was in attendance at that meeting? A I think -- Q If anyone. A I mentioned that I think that was the time that Eva Dubin and a friend came by. They weren't part of the meeting, but there was a meeting. Q Do you recall the name of Ms. Dubin's friend? A I don't. Q And again, the topic of discussion at that meeting? A You know, this is -- you're getting to the period where there's a lot of focus on whether money can be raised for global health, so that would have been the primary topic. Q Just looking at a couple of entries above, on February 27th, there's a notation, 12:20 p.m., and apologies, I'm almost certainly going to mispronounce this name, ,"], [9499, 12, 50, "Page 51", null, null, "for the court reporter, , to arrive JFK by Virgin Atlantic 3, and at the end of the entry it says, Four Seasons to meet up with you, referring to Epstein, at 2:00 p.m. [Discussion off the record.] Mr. Gates. Okay. Yeah. Go ahead. BY MR. : Q Do you recall an individual by that name attending the Four Seasons meeting? A No. Q And then the 10:15 p.m. meeting reflected in this calendar, that, if I understand correctly, took place at Mr. Gates' residence? A No. Q I'm sorry. Mr. Epstein's residence. A There was no -- I don't think there was a 10:15 meeting. There was a -- I thought it was earlier than that. Q And was that a dinner? A I think so, yes. Q And do you recall who attended that dinner? A I think that was another time where Terje Rod-Larsen and Jagland Thorbjorn -- Jagland is his last name -- Thorbjorn Jagland attended the dinner. And that's also the dinner where -- he invited us over and David Blaine came and did a few magic tricks. Q You were asked in a previous round about the presence of young women during these various interactions. Do you recall any young women being present at Mr. Gates' home on the evening of February 27th? A Mr. Epstein's home. Not my home. When David Blaine did his magic trick, there was -- or tricks, there was one of those admin people standing around as that was being done, but I was not introduced to her."]], "truncated": false, "filtered_table_rows_count": 137, "expanded_columns": [], "expandable_columns": [[{"column": "deposition_id", "other_table": "depositions", "other_column": "id"}, "title"]], "columns": ["id", "deposition_id", "segment_index", "speaker", "start_seconds", "end_seconds", "text"], "primary_keys": ["id"], "units": {}, "query": {"sql": "select id, deposition_id, segment_index, speaker, start_seconds, end_seconds, text from segments where \"deposition_id\" = :p0 order by id limit 51", "params": {"p0": "12"}}, "facet_results": {}, "suggested_facets": [], "next": "9499", "next_url": "https://epstein-data.com/deposition_transcripts/segments.json?deposition_id=12&_next=9499", "private": false, "allow_execute_sql": true, "query_ms": 28.452102094888687, "source": "Epstein Files Transparency Act (Public Law 119-38) DOJ Production", "source_url": "https://www.justice.gov/epstein", "license": "CC BY-NC-SA 4.0", "license_url": "https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/"}