id,deposition_id,segment_index,speaker,start_seconds,end_seconds,text
9760,15,0,Page 1,,,"COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C. INTERVIEW OF: KATHRYN H. RUEMMLER Wednesday, July 15, 2026 Washington, D.C. The interview in the above matter was held in Room 2247, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 10:08 a.m. Present: Representatives Comer, Higgins, Biggs, Burlison, Lynch, Krishnamoorthi, Stansbury, Garcia, Crockett, Randall, Subramanyam, Ansari, Bell, Min, Walkinshaw, and Menefee."
9761,15,1,Page 2,,,"Appearances: For the COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM: DANIEL ASHWORTH, GENERAL COUNSEL , UNDERGRADUATE FELLOW HANNAH CATHEY, PROFESSIONAL STAFF MEMBER MALLORY COGAR, CHIEF CLERK AND DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF OPERATIONS JESSICA COLLINS, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR JACK EMMER, CHIEF COUNSEL FOR INVESTIGATIONS EMILY FEYERABEND, COUNSEL BILLY GRANT, DEPUTY CHIEF COUNSEL FOR INVESTIGATIONS WILL HARNICE, PROFESSIONAL STAFF MEMBER , UNDERGRADUATE FELLOW MARK MARIN, STAFF DIRECTOR LISA MORTIER, SENIOR ADVISOR PETER SPECTRE, DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR OVERSIGHT ELLISON TOLAN, COUNSEL ASHLEE VINYARD, DEPUTY STAFF DIRECTOR , MINORITY DEPUTY STAFF DIRECTOR , MINORITY STAFF DIRECTOR , MINORITY SENIOR POLICY ADVISOR , MINORITY DEPUTY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR , MINORITY FELLOW"
9762,15,2,Page 3,,,", MINORITY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR , MINORITY RESEARCH ASSISTANT , MINORITY RESEARCH ANALYST , MINORITY INTERN , MINORITY PRESS SECRETARY , MINORITY SENIOR COUNSEL , MINORITY INTERN , MINORITY SENIOR COUNSEL , MINORITY OPERATIONS SPECIALIST , MINORITY FELLOW , MINORITY DEPUTY CHIEF COUNSEL , MINORITY CLERK INTERN , MINORITY PROFESSIONAL STAFF MEMBER , MINORITY FELLOW , MINORITY SENIOR ADVISOR , MINORITY LEGAL INTERN , MINORITY CHIEF COUNSEL"
9763,15,3,Page 4,,,"For KATHRYN H. RUEMMLER: PAUL J. FISHMAN, ESQ. RACHEL F. COTTON, ESQ. Arnold & Porter 601 Massachusetts Ave NW Washington, D.C. 20001-3743 JONATHAN I. KRAVIS, ESQ. Liu Shur Kravis, LLP The Westory 607 14th Street NW, Suite 625 Washington, D.C. 20005"
9764,15,4,Page 5,,,"Mr. Grant. We will go on the record. It is 10:08 a.m. Good morning. This is a transcribed interview of Ms. Kathryn Ruemmler, conducted by the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform under the authority granted to it pursuant to House rule X. Accordingly, House rule X grants the Committee broad jurisdiction for the Committee to conduct investigations of any matter at any time. This interview was requested by Chairman James Comer as part of the Committee's investigation into the circumstances and subsequent investigations into the crimes of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, the operation of sex-trafficking rings and ways for the Federal Government to effectively combat them, the ways in which Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell sought to curry favor and exercise influence to protect their illegal activities, and potential violations of ethics rules related to elected officials. Can the witness please state her name and spell her last name for the record? Ms. Ruemmler. Yes. Kathryn H. Ruemmler, R-u-e-m-m-l-e-r. Mr. Grant. Thank you. I want to thank Ms. Ruemmler for appearing here voluntarily today. My name is Billy Grant, and I am the deputy chief counsel for investigations for Chairman James Comer. Under the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform's rules, you are allowed to have counsel present to advise you during this interview. Do you have counsel representing you in a personal capacity present with you today? Ms. Ruemmler. I do. Mr. Grant. Will all counsel please identify themselves for the record? Mr. Fishman. Paul Fishman from Arnold & Porter. Ms. Cotton. Rachel Cotton, Arnold & Porter."
9765,15,5,Page 6,,,"Mr. Kravis. Jonathan Kravis, Liu Shur Kravis. Mr. Grant. Thank you all. For the record, starting with majority staff, can the additional staff members please introduce themselves with their name, title, and affiliation? Ms. Tolan. Ellison Tolan, senior counsel, Chairman Comer. Mr. Emmer. Jack Emmer, chief counsel for investigations for Chairman Comer. Mr. Harnice. Will Harnice, professional staff member for Chairman Comer. Ms. Feyerabend. Emily Feyerabend, counsel for Chairman Comer. Ms. Cathey. Hannah Cathey, professional staff member, Chairman Comer. Mr. Marin. Mark Marin, staff director, Chairman Comer. Ms. Collins. Jessica Collins, communications director, Chairman Comer. Ms. Vinyard. Ashlee Vinyard, deputy staff director, Chairman Comer. Ms. Cogar. Mallory Cogar, director of operations and chief clerk, Chairman Comer. Mr. . , deputy chief counsel for the minority. Mr. . fellow, Ranking Member Garcia. Ms. . , fellow, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. . , operations specialist for Ranking Member Robert Garcia. Ms. . , senior counsel, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. . , senior counsel, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. . , chief counsel, Ranking Member Garcia. Ms. , research assistant, Ranking Member Garcia. Ms. . , research analyst, Ranking Member Garcia. Ms. , professional staff member, Ranking Member Garcia. Ms. . , senior policy advisor, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. . , clerk intern, Ranking Member Garcia."
9766,15,6,Page 7,,,"Mr. . , fellow, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. . , legal intern, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. . , staff director, Ranking Member Garcia. Ms. . , deputy communications director, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. . senior advisor, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. Spectre. Peter Spectre, director of oversight for Chairman Comer. Mr. Ashworth. Dan Ashworth, general counsel for Chairman Comer. Mr. Grant. Thank you all. Will the Members of Congress please identify themselves for the record? Chairman Comer. James Comer, Chairman, Kentucky. Mr. Higgins. Clay Higgins, Louisiana. Mr. Biggs. Andy Biggs, Arizona 5. Mr. Grant. Thank you all. Ms. Ruemmler, before we begin, I would like to go over the ground rules for this interview. The questioning will proceed in rounds. The majority will ask questions for up to an hour, and then the minority will have an opportunity to ask questions for up to an hour if they choose. To the extent members have questions for the witness, they will be propounded during their side's respective rounds. The clock will stop if you need to confer with counsel, your counsel is speaking, and when members or staff are speaking during the opposing side's rounds of questions. We will alternate back and forth until there are no more questions. Do you understand? Ms. Ruemmler. I do. Mr. Grant. There is a court reporter taking down everything I say and everything you say to make a written record of the interview."
9767,15,7,Page 8,,,"For the record to be clear, please wait until the staffer questioning you finishes each question before you begin your answer, and the staffer will wait until you finish your response before proceeding to the next question. Further, to ensure the court reporter can properly record this interview, please speak clearly, concisely, and slowly. Also, the court reporter cannot record nonverbal answers, such as nodding or shaking your head, so it is important that you answer each question with an audible, verbal answer. Do you understand? Ms. Ruemmler. I do. Mr. Grant. Exhibits may be entered into the record. Majority exhibits will be identified numerically. Minority exhibits will be identified alphabetically. Do you understand? Ms. Ruemmler. I do. Mr. Grant. We want you to answer our questions in the most complete and truthful manner possible, so we will take our time. If you have any questions or do not fully understand the question, please let us know. We will attempt to clarify, add context to, or rephrase our questions. If we ask about specific conversations or events in the past and you are unable to recall the exact words or details, you should testify to the substance of those conversations or events to the best of your recollection. If you recall only a part of a conversation or event, you should give us your best recollection of those events or parts of conversations that you do recall. Do you understand? Ms. Ruemmler. I do. Mr. Grant. Although you are here voluntarily, you are required by law pursuant to Title 18 of the United States Code, section 1001, to answer questions from Congress truthfully. This also applies to questions posed by congressional staff in this interview."
9768,15,8,Page 9,,,"Do you understand? Ms. Ruemmler. Yes. Mr. Grant. If at any time you knowingly make false statements, you could be subject to criminal prosecution. Do you understand? Ms. Ruemmler. Yes. Mr. Grant. This includes both knowingly providing false testimony but also stating that you do not recall or remember something when, in fact, you do. Do you understand? Ms. Ruemmler. Yes. Mr. Grant. Furthermore, you cannot tell half-truths or exclude information necessary to make statements accurate. You are required to provide all information that would make your response truthful. A deliberate failure to disclose information can constitute a false statement. Do you understand? Ms. Ruemmler. Yes. Mr. Grant. Is there any reason you are unable to provide truthful testimony in today's interview? Ms. Ruemmler. No. Mr. Grant. Please note that if you wish to assert a privilege over any statement today, that assertion must comply with the rules of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. Pursuant to that, Committee rule 16(c)(1) states, ""For the Chair to consider assertions of privilege over testimony or statements, witnesses or entities must clearly state the specific privilege being asserted and the reason for the assertion on or before the scheduled date of testimony or appearance."" Do you understand? Ms. Ruemmler. Yes. Mr. Grant. Ordinarily we take a 5-minute break at the end of each hour of questioning, but if"
9769,15,9,Page 10,,,"you need a longer break or a break before that, please let us know, and we will be happy to accommodate. However, to the extent that there is a pending question, we would ask that you finish answering the question before we take the break. Do you understand? Ms. Ruemmler. Yes. Mr. Grant. Do you have any other questions before we begin? Ms. Ruemmler. I do not. Mr. Grant. We've had another Member of Congress join. Can he please identify himself for the record? Mr. Bell. Congressman Wesley Bell, Missouri's First District. Mr. Grant. Thank you, sir. I understand that you have an opening statement that you would like to read for the record. You may do so now. Ms. Ruemmler. Thank you very much. Thank you all for the opportunity to appear before the Committee. I have been a practicing lawyer for 30 years as a Federal prosecutor, as a defense attorney, and as a general counsel. I first met Jeffrey Epstein in July of 2014 when I was restarting my legal practice after having served several years in government. Although Epstein was never my client, I got to know him when he referred a financial-institution client to me for which he was a primary advisor. There are two important points that I want to make up front: I did not see any evidence of ongoing criminal conduct or misconduct of any kind by Mr. Epstein during the time I dealt with him. Second, if I had seen or heard any evidence suggesting that he was abusing women or girls, I would have immediately reported him to law enforcement."
9770,15,10,Page 11,,,"If I knew then what I know now about who Epstein really was, I never would have accepted an initial meeting with him. It was a mistake to deal with him, and I regret it. But many people assume that, given everything we know now about Epstein, everyone who dealt with him before his 2019 indictment must have known everything then. In my case, that assumption is completely wrong. When Epstein cold-called me at my law firm in July of 2014, I had never heard of him and knew nothing about him. He told me that he was working with Bill Gates to set up a large donor-advised fund and that he and Mr. Gates were looking for someone to quarterback the myriad legal issues involved in establishing and administering this fund. Though that donor-advised fund ultimately did not materialize, within weeks Epstein referred another important client which did retain me and which I represented until I left my law firm in 2020. Epstein was already a primary advisor to that client, a role he maintained throughout my time in private practice, and I had substantial dealings with him as a result. He also referred other clients to me. And even though I wasn't his lawyer, he sought my advice from time to time, as many people do. I was friendly with him in that context, and I dealt with him in my ordinary course -- casually, informally, and sometimes irreverently. Shortly after meeting Epstein, I came to understand that he had pleaded guilty 6 years earlier to two prostitution-related offenses, including solicitation of a minor for prostitution, and had received a non-prosecution agreement from the Department of Justice. I learned from him that he had received an 18-month sentence, of which he served 13 months, much of that time on work release. Epstein told me that, while a small number of the women he had solicited for prostitution turned out to be under the age of consent, he had not known that any of them were underage. Epstein appeared to be quite open about the conduct leading to his conviction, or so he led"
9771,15,11,Page 12,,,"me to believe. He expressed remorse, embarrassment, and regret for his conduct, which he described as paying money for sex to women he believed to be over the age of 18. Notwithstanding his conviction, by the time I met him he had active relationships with an extensive group of respected professionals in business, academia, politics, and the arts. And given the nature of my law practice, I routinely dealt with compromised or controversial people, including those facing criminal or other allegations of wrongdoing. To be clear, at no time did I endorse or excuse the conduct for which Epstein had pleaded guilty in 2008. As a former prosecutor, I relied on the resolution reached by Federal and State prosecutors and validated by a judge as being a proportionate and final resolution of his criminal conduct. In light of everything we know now, that resolution was deeply flawed. But at the time, given my experience, the resolution seemed consistent with his description, that he was a customer, or a “John,” and had never intentionally targeted minors. Epstein also provided me with a letter that one of his attorneys in that matter, Stephanie Thacker, had written to the Deputy Attorney General's Office at DOJ in 2008 appealing the Miami U.S. Attorney's requirement that Epstein enter a non-prosecution agreement. Although I did not know Ms. Thacker personally, I knew of her reputation as a judge on the United States Court of Appeals and as a respected and experienced former supervisory prosecutor in DOJ's Child Exploitation and Obscenity Section. Ms. Thacker's lengthy and substantive letter stated that the evidence gathered by State and Federal investigators showed that Epstein sought commercial sex only from people who were of age. As we know now, his conduct was much worse and more sinister, but at the time I reviewed Ms. Thacker's letter, it strongly supported and corroborated Epstein's explanations to me. And based on my experience as a former senior DOJ official, I also knew that the U.S. Attorney's Office in Miami had a reputation for aggressive, hard-nosed prosecution. I believed that"
9772,15,12,Page 13,,,"those prosecutors would have charged him with targeting minors for commercial sex if they had sufficient evidence to support such charges. My communication with Epstein ended in July 2019 after he was indicted for sex trafficking minors. I was shocked by the indictment, which alleged that Epstein had intentionally enticed and recruited minor girls to engage in sex acts with him in exchange for cash. Those horrific allegations, which covered conduct that had occurred almost 10 years before I met Epstein, contradicted what I had understood about the nature and scope of that prior conduct. There has been much media attention around my email communications with Epstein and gifts that he gave me. Many of my emails with Epstein have been taken out of context, or do not mean what some have speculated or suggested. With that said, given what I now know about him, I wish I never would have dealt with him at all, much less emailed with him. With respect to gifts, I didn't ask for them, I didn't need them, and I didn't view them as particularly personal or consequential. I accepted them graciously, as I saw no reason not to, but the gifts weren't important to me, and I declined to accept some of them. In any event, nothing he gave me caused me to deal with him any differently than I otherwise would have. Epstein was a masterful liar, and he clearly lied to me. I can see now that he used me and other respectable people to legitimize his standing, and I know now that he often exaggerated his relationship with me to others. I understand how frustrating and hurtful it must have been for anyone victimized by Epstein to see him going about his life without facing the type of accountability and consequences that he deserved. I am angry that he hurt so many people, and I regret ever having anything to do with him. I look forward to answering the Committee's questions. Mr. Grant. Thank you, Ms. Ruemmler. The time reads 10:23, and the majority's time will begin now. EXAMINATION"
9773,15,13,Page 14,,,"BY MR. GRANT: Q Thank you for that opening statement. Of course, just to make sure that we have a thorough transcript of today's interview, some of these questions will, of course, elicit what you just brought up in your opening statement, so I want to apologize in advance for that. A Understood. Q I want to briefly begin with discussing your background. So where did you attend undergraduate school? A The University of Washington in Seattle. Q And what degree did you graduate with? A A Bachelor of Arts degree in English. Q And where did you attend law school? A Georgetown University Law Center. Q And when did you graduate from Georgetown? A 1996. Q When were you admitted to practice law? A 1998. Q And what jurisdictions do you currently hold a bar license? A The District of Columbia, the State of Virginia, and State of New York. Q Are your licenses currently in good standing? A Yes. Q And can you briefly just go through your professional background from when you graduated law school until current day? A Sure. Right after law school, I clerked on the United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit. Then I worked at a litigation boutique here in Washington, D.C., where I specialized in"
9774,15,14,Page 15,,,"white-collar criminal defense. From there, I went to the White House, where I worked as Associate Counsel to the President for President William Jefferson Clinton. From there, I worked briefly at a law firm in Washington, D.C., the law firm of Latham & Watkins. And I left Latham & Watkins when I had the opportunity to go and work in the U.S. Attorney's Office in D.C. as an assistant U.S. attorney. I worked in that office for a few years, and then I had the opportunity to go on detail to Main Justice, where I spent close to 4 years working on the investigation and prosecution of executives at Enron after its collapse. I then returned to private practice as a partner to the law firm of Latham & Watkins, where I again specialized in white-collar criminal defense. I was there for 2 years. And then I returned to government in January of 2009 in a senior management role at the Justice Department. I served as the Principal Associate Deputy Attorney General until 2010. In 2010, I moved to the White House, where I became Principal Deputy White House Counsel for President Barack Obama. In June of '11, I was promoted to White House Counsel for President Barack Obama. I served in that role until May of 2014. And I returned to private practice at Latham & Watkins in July of 2014, where I became the global chair of the White Collar Defense and Investigations Practice at Latham. I worked in private practice in that capacity until April of 2020 when I moved to go to Goldman Sachs. My first position at Goldman Sachs was global head of regulatory affairs. I then was -- I moved to become -- or I was promoted to become the chief legal officer and general counsel of Goldman Sachs in March of 2021. And in February of 2026, I announced that I would be stepping down from those roles at the end of June. And I currently am in an advisory role at Goldman Sachs. Q Thank you. A very illustrious career."
9775,15,15,Page 16,,,"A Thank you. Q What were your primary responsibilities when you were the White House Counsel? A You know, there's a -- the very first White House Counsel was appointed by then-President Franklin Delano Roosevelt. And he was asked -- this is -- I don't know if this is apocryphal, but this is the story. He was asked by a member of the media what this White House Counsel was going to do, and he said, ""Legal stuff."" And that, I think, is still a pretty apt description of the job. As White House Counsel, there are a number of responsibilities that I think are very particularized to the role. You are responsible for judicial nominations, making recommendations to the President for judicial nominations and shepherding those, along with the Office of Legislative Affairs, through the Senate confirmation process. You are -- at least when I was working for President Obama, I had responsibility for making clemency recommendations to the President, advising on legality of matters relating to domestic policy, national security, congressional oversight. It's been quite a few years since I've been up here with the House Oversight Committee. I've typically always been a lawyer, so this is my first go-around as a witness and not being a lawyer here. But that was a significant part of my responsibility -- responding to Congress and liaising with the general counsels of the other agencies. So it's a very broad portfolio. Q Thank you. Mr. Emmer. We've had another member join. Can he please announce himself for the record? Mr. Walkinshaw. James Walkinshaw, Virginia's 11th District. Ms. Stansbury. Good morning. Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico's First Congressional District. Mr. Grant. Thank you."
9776,15,16,Page 17,,,"BY MR. GRANT: Q Ms. Ruemmler, when did you first meet Jeffrey Epstein? A I met him in July of 2014 when he cold-called Latham & Watkins and asked to speak to me. Q And prior to that cold call, you had no other interactions? A None. Q No in-person meetings? A No. I had not -- I didn't know who he was prior to receiving the message that this person named Jeffrey Epstein had called and asked for me to return his call relating to a potential legal matter. Q And, at this time, were you aware of any of his previous legal troubles? A At that time, no. Q And what was the reason for this cold call? A What he said -- so I returned the call. What he said was that he was working with Bill Gates to put together a large donor-advised fund that would allow people to pool their resources for philanthropy and therefore be -- you know, sort of, potentially have a greater impact. This was an idea that he told me he had been working on with Mr. Gates and that there were a number of legal issues that would be involved. There would be tax issues and securities issues; there would be the establishment of the fund. And while I didn't have particular expertise in, you know, these particular legal subjects, what he said was, ""I understand that you are a, you know, excellent generalist lawyer, and we need someone to quarterback these various legal issues that will come into play."" Q And are you aware of somebody referring him to you? A I didn't know that at the -- no, I didn't know why he was reaching out to me. Q Have you subsequently learned if someone referred him to you?"
9777,15,17,Page 18,,,"A When I met with him the first meeting -- so he asked me in that first phone call if I would meet with him to discuss it further. And in that first meeting, to the best of my recollection, he mentioned a couple of people who we knew in common. Q And who were those people? A Larry Summers I recall him mentioning and Reid Weingarten, who was a prominent criminal defense attorney. Q And for the first phone call you mentioned -- the ""cold call"" I'll refer to it as -- was anyone else present on this call with you? A No. Q And in this first in-person meeting with Mr. Epstein, was there anyone else present at that meeting? A Not during the meeting, no. Ms. Tolan. And you said you had just started working at Latham & Watkins in July 2014 as well. Was that correct? Ms. Ruemmler. Yes. In fact, when he called the law firm, I hadn't actually started working yet. It was in the public that I was going -- I was leaving the White House and I was going to return to Latham & Watkins, but I actually hadn't formally started yet. And so when he called the main receptionist in New York, it was routed to somebody else, and then that person said, ""Hey, this person has a potential new matter."" So it was right before I started, but I actually hadn't technically started yet. I didn't have an office yet, I didn't have a computer, I didn't have a Latham & Watkins email, I didn't have a phone number yet. Ms. Tolan. Yeah. And was it just a few days or a couple weeks or -- Ms. Ruemmler. It was when -- when I had the first meeting with him, I believe it was the Friday before I started at the firm on a Monday."
9778,15,18,Page 19,,,"BY MR. GRANT: Q And between this cold call and the first meeting that you had with Mr. Epstein in person, what did you know about Mr. Epstein leading into that meeting? A I don't remember knowing anything about him. I had never -- I'd never heard of him before. And so, you know, walking into that meeting, I just don't have any specific recollection of knowing much about him at all. I remember, the first meeting, you know -- there were a number of things that were striking about that first meeting that I remember quite well. Q And what were those things? A He -- so he held, you know, his meetings at this townhouse that he lived in in New York. And it was a very large townhouse, extremely large and, you know, imposing from the street. And I recall that there were the -- you know, he -- at the outside of the townhouse, it had two initials. It was a bit strange, was a bit unusual to me. I hadn't seen that before. People typically have their house numbers, but the initials were ""JE."" And then when I went into the townhouse, I was asked to go to meet him in his office. And the office was enormous. It took up the entire front of the -- you know, street-front of the mansion. And there was an enormous taxidermied tiger on the floor. So that was, I thought -- was something I remember quite well. Q And when you arrived for this meeting, did someone invite you into the house? Was it Mr. Epstein or someone else? A There was -- there is a buzzer outside -- so, like, a, you know -- announcing your arrival. And I believe someone opened -- someone on the staff opened the door for me. And then there was a small office on the first floor, and that was, sort of, if you think about it like a secretarial office. And he had an executive assistant who sat there. So I believe I sat there waiting for the appointment, if you will, and then was told that my --"
9779,15,19,Page 20,,,"you know, the meeting would start, and I was asked to walk up a set of stairs to his office. Q And do you recall who that secretary was at that time? A I believe it was Leslie Groff. Q What did you -- A But I certainly came to see her, you know, several times when I would have meetings at the townhouse. Q And -- A That was her office, was my understanding. Q Understood. And so you mentioned some of the impressions you got from this first meeting at Mr. Epstein's New York home. What were your first impressions of Mr. Epstein from this meeting? A He struck me as extremely arrogant. He was a high-energy person. You know, he was a -- he struck me as eccentric. I don't think I'd ever seen anyone's office that size. It was probably three times the size of any -- I mean, it was bigger than the Oval Office. And, you know, I thought to myself, ""Who has a stuffed tiger, like, sitting on their office floor?"" The rest of the -- well, I'll let you ask the next question. Q What did you -- you've mentioned that the cold call was about setting up this fund with Mr. Gates. Is that the only thing that was brought up during this in-person meeting as well, or were there other things discussed? A The meeting was like an interview. That's how it felt to me. He was interviewing me for this potential role. It was a role that, had it materialized, would have been, you know, a great role for a lawyer, and it would've been a great -- it would've been a great matter for my law firm, because my law firm, you know, it's one of the largest -- it is today, but even then was, you know, one of the largest law firms in the world, and so you have lots of different lawyers with very specific types of subject-matter"
9780,15,20,Page 21,,,"expertise. And so, given the size of the project as being described, it would've required a lot of different lawyers to be involved. And so those are -- those are the kinds of matters that law firms tend to really like. Q Understood. And what did you understand Mr. Epstein's job to be at this time? A I understood, you know, just generally, that he was someone who had a lot of financial expertise and acumen and had acted as an advisor to, you know, wealthy people and families. Q And obviously he had this gigantic mansion that you went to, but did you already understand Mr. Epstein to be a wealthy man when you first met him? A I didn't know anything other than the size of the house, and no normal person lives in a house like that. Q Understood. And you mentioned that he had done some sort of -- or it was your impression he had done some sort of financial work for families or other individuals. Do you know how -- did you know how he acquired his money? A I didn't. Q At the time of your first meetings with him, did you learn who any of his clients were or purported to be? A No. Q When did you first learn who his clients were? A I knew -- I don't remember exactly when I learned, you know, over the course of time. And I didn't know the exact nature of the client relationship. It wasn't -- other than what I observed about my own -- the client I did come to represent, who he was the primary advisor for. But I didn't -- I didn't have any insight, if you will, into his relationships with other clients. Q And who was that mutual client of yours?"
9781,15,21,Page 22,,,"A It was the Edmond de Rothschild Bank. Q Switching gears a little bit -- Mr. Emmer. We've had another member join. Can he please announce himself for the record? Mr. Garcia. Sure. Ranking Member Robert Garcia. Mr. Emmer. We've also had additional staff members join. Can they please announce themselves for the record? Ms. . , comms director, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. Emmer. Thank you all. BY MR. GRANT: Q Switching gears a little bit, can you just briefly describe the nature and extent of your relationship with Mr. Epstein through the years? A Sure. I knew him professionally as a lawyer. The foundation of my relationship and interaction and dealings with Epstein were as a lawyer. As I said, within the first few weeks of meeting him, he asked whether I was available -- or whether I could be available to work on a representation for a client of his, which was a Swiss bank that, like every other Swiss bank, had a problem with the U.S. Justice Department. And he was in a primary advisory role with that client throughout my period of time in private practice. And I continued to represent that client throughout my private practice. In addition, he referred other clients to me over the years, and I was friendly with him in the context of a business relationship. Q Roughly how many other clients did he refer to you over the years? A I don't remember exactly. It was probably three or four. Q And who were those clients?"
9782,15,22,Page 23,,,"A There were two matters -- there were two matters that he referred to me that I had a conflict at the law firm, so I was not able to do them. One was a matter that was -- it was a civil dispute for Apollo, the hedge fund. The second one relates to an individual, so I would, respectfully, prefer not to identify the individual's name, because that, I think, is probably confidential in the context of a, you know, potential representation. Mr. Emmer. We've had more members join. Can they please announce themselves for the record? Mr. Burlison. I'm Congressman Eric Burlison from Missouri. Ms. Ruemmler. Good morning. Mr. Subramanyam. I'm Congressman Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia. Mr. Grant. Thank you all. BY MR. GRANT: Q How frequently would you say you communicated with Mr. Epstein? Actually, let me back for up a second. The relationship started in, I believe you said, July of 2014, roughly? A That's right. Q And when did your relationship with Mr. Epstein end? A In July of 2019, when he was indicted on sex-trafficking charges by the U.S. Attorney's Office in the Southern District of New York. Q And through this time period of July of 2014 to July of 2019, how frequently did you communicate with Mr. Epstein, roughly? A It's hard to say. He was a -- it sort of seemed to me that he spent, kind of, all day every day calling people, emailing people, you know, sort of connecting people. So, you know, he was someone who was very pushy and insinuating and, I think, was always"
9783,15,23,Page 24,,,"trying to -- my impression was he was always trying to make stuff happen and sort of put people together and, you know, see if he could make deals happen and, you know, somehow figure out how to monetize that activity of putting businesspeople together. Q So would you say that your personal communications with Mr. Epstein -- were they daily? Weekly? Monthly? Depended on what you guys were working on? A I couldn't say. I mean, he communicated with me a lot. He emailed me a lot. And, you know, he was just a very, kind of, persistent guy in that way. And, you know, I am -- by nature, I'm a responsive person, and so I generally tried to be responsive. He was such a, sort of, relentless person, it was, frankly, hard to be responsive all the time, particularly because throughout this period of time I had a very active law practice that had absolutely nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein. So, you know -- but, yes, I mean, he -- I emailed with him frequently, I would say, you know, throughout the 5-year period that I knew him. Q And was email the primary method of your communication? A Yes. Q Would you also have phone calls with Mr. Epstein? A Yes. Q Did you take in-person meetings often with Mr. Epstein? A I did, but I would not characterize those as ""often"" because he did not live in New York, and so -- like a lot of people who maintain a residence in New York but don't live in New York, they have to count their days. And so he would come to New York, you know, every couple of months, was my impression. And when he did, he would ask people -- you know, he would reach out to people and ask them to come and have meetings. And so, if I met with him in person, it would be at his -- typically in the dining room of his Manhattan townhouse."
9784,15,24,Page 25,,,"Q And can you estimate how many in-person meetings you would've had with Mr. Epstein? A I really can't. But, again, just knowing -- just knowing his general frequency of coming to New York -- like, let's say he came, you know, six times a year. If I happened to be in New York -- which I wasn't always -- and he asked me to come for a meeting, you know, I typically would do that. And so, you know, this is just a guess, but I'd say, you know, I maybe met with him in person, like, 20 times over the 5 years. Q During your relationship with Mr. Epstein, was there any point in time where you communicated more frequently? A I think that I communicated -- I haven't done an analysis of that, so -- but certainly during the first couple of years that I knew him, when I was actively working on the Rothschild representation -- and, again, you know, he was primary advisor. So he was sort of, if you think about -- he was sort of the primary relationship conduit, and I was sort of the secondary, if you will. And over time I developed an independent relationship with the bank and the client, but, you know, he was always there. In the later years, he would -- in the later years, my recollection is that I became less responsive because he became pushier and I had an independent relationship with the Rothschild client at that point and I was really busy doing a lot of other legal work. Q At any point during your association with Mr. Epstein, would you consider him to be a friend? A I considered him to -- I was friendly with him, but I considered my relationship with him to be based on the fact that I was a lawyer in private practice. And if I hadn't been a lawyer in private practice, I would've had no reason to deal with him and he would've had no reason to deal with me. Q And you've referred -- in emails released by the Department of Justice, you've referred to Mr. Epstein as ""sweetie,"" ""older brother,"" ""Uncle Jeffrey."""
9785,15,25,Page 26,,,"Was your relationship ever romantic with Mr. Epstein? A Absolutely not. Q Did you ever have a sexual relationship with Mr. Epstein? A Absolutely not. Q If there wasn't a romantic relationship, why did you refer to Mr. Epstein in these terms? A Well, we can take them one by one, if you would like. Q Okay. A And there's -- Q So the first one I mentioned was ""sweetie."" A Yeah. So the context I remember -- there's an email in which I call him ""sweetie."" The context of that was that he sent me an email comparing his prior criminal conduct to the conduct that had been alleged publicly right around that time against Harvey Weinstein. And he said something to the effect of, ""My conduct was money in exchange for sex. This guy was dangling jobs over people and, you know, basically pretending as if"" -- again, this is in reference to -- I'm paraphrasing, but this is what I understood him to be saying in his not-very-grammatically-correct email to me, okay? That ""Harvey Weinstein -- like, what's being said about him is really bad, because these are women who are coming forward and saying he was sort of dangling these opportunities to be in movies, and young actresses, and he was deceptive. It was this element of, like, deceptiveness. And he was using his power within the movie industry to sort of coerce or assault -- you know, assault women. But, by contrast, all I did was pay for sex. And this was just a strictly commercial transaction, and everybody was consenting. And so what I did wasn't so bad."" And so I responded, and I said in a very -- in a way that was designed to tell someone something that they didn't want to hear, in a patronizing way -- the court reporter is not going to get"
9786,15,26,Page 27,,,"this. But my tone was, ""sweetie,"" like I was patting him on the head. ""Hey, sweetie, your conduct involved abuse of power too."" So it was far from an indication of affection. It was me speaking to him and correcting him from trying to minimize his own prior criminal history against Mr. Weinstein's, and I said it in a way, over email, that was designed to make the medicine go down a little bit easier. Q Understood. Thank you for that. The next term I mentioned was ""older brother."" A Yes. So that was an email that I sent to his executive assistant. At the time that I sent -- that I used those words, I didn't know Epstein. I'd only known him for a couple of months. He had referred a -- as I said, he had referred this important client to me. It was a -- it was a big matter. It was a good matter. We did great work for that -- for the bank. And I was traveling, I think for the first time, is my recollection, from New York over to Geneva, which is where the bank was based. And, again, he was the primary advisor. And if I'm recalling this email correctly, he had asked for his executive assistant to upgrade me on the flight. And I said -- or it was some other thing that he was asking -- it was something involving my flying to Geneva or he was asking his executive assistant to do for me. And to show my appreciation -- which, again, I didn't ask for it. I didn't need it. He knew I was traveling there because he had this primary advisory relationship with the client. And I was saying, you know, ""He doesn't really need to do this."" And she's like, ""No, he just wants to be nice."" And I said, ""Oh, he's"" -- I think I said something like, ""I adore him. He's like an older brother."" Again, he was -- I didn't need any of these things from him, but he -- what I thought at the time was that he was being nice; this was insignificant to him, in terms of the value. I wasn't paying for the flight anyway, because it was a business trip. And that was the context in which I made that reference. Q Thank you for that explanation."
9787,15,27,Page 28,,,"And the third term I mentioned to you was ""Uncle Jeffrey."" A Yes. So Mr. Epstein was -- as I said a few minutes ago, he was extremely arrogant. He was a mansplainer. He was pushy. He was avuncular. And as a joke and, frankly, to poke fun of those qualities -- you know, again, at this point in time -- you know, it's 10 years ago, 12 years ago -- I'm in my, you know, early 40s, I'm a relatively accomplished professional, okay? And he's constantly offering me all sorts of unsolicited advice, you know, et cetera, and I -- about -- by the way, about a whole host of things that even, frankly, he didn't really know much about. That didn't stop him from offering his opinions. And, in that context -- and I think it was in response to, you know, again, something that he had sent me, you know, as a gift -- that I, sort of, in a teasing way, referred to him, you know, as ""Uncle Jeffrey,"" in a way to not be -- to sort of call him out for the way that he could be quite patronizing as a -- you know, we all -- we all sometimes have relatives like that. And that's what -- that's what I meant. Q And then did Mr. Epstein ever meet any of your family members? A No. Q Are you aware of Mr. Epstein having any children of his own? A Not that I was aware of. Ms. Tolan. Apart from your in-person meetings with Mr. Epstein that you mentioned, did you ever socialize with him in any other context? Ms. Ruemmler. No. BY MR. GRANT: Q And you mentioned that the relationship ended in July of 2019? A Yes. Q When was the last time you communicated with Mr. Epstein?"
9788,15,28,Page 29,,,"A The last time I communicated with him was when he called me after he was arrested. Q And what was the nature of that conversation? A Again, to the best of my -- to the best of my recollection, it was a very short conversation, probably less than a minute. And, to the best of my recollection, the only thing that he said was that he'd been arrested. And my response was, ""You obviously need to call your lawyer."" Q He didn't ask you for any legal advice at that time? A Not at that time. Mr. Emmer. Were you aware that he had been arrested prior to this phone call? Ms. Ruemmler. No. That was what alerted me to the fact that he was arrested, was his call. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did he describe any of the facts surrounding why he was being arrested on this call? A Not that I remember. I don't believe so. Q Did he ask you to call or reach out to anyone else on his behalf? A No. Q When was the last time you saw Mr. Epstein in person? A It was at his arraignment in July of 2019. Q And where did that occur? A It was at the Federal courthouse in Manhattan. Q And why did you decide to go to his arraignment? A I wanted to understand what was going on. You know, this is someone who I had dealt with over the prior 5 years. I was absolutely shocked that he had been arrested. It was -- you could've knocked me over with a feather, I was so shocked by it. And I didn't understand, you know, what he was being charged with. And, you know, in Federal court, there aren't any cameras allowed in the court. And I knew -- obviously, I was still -- I was still representing the Rothschild Bank. I had come to have a personal"
9789,15,29,Page 30,,,"relationship with Ariane de Rothschild, and so I knew that she would want to know, like, what exactly was going on. And so the way to find out exactly what was going on is actually to be there in the courtroom. And so I went with a partner of mine from the law firm, and we sat in the back of the courtroom to watch the -- just, you know, to see the proceedings and to see exactly what the nature of the charges were. Q And who was that partner from the law firm? A Chris Clark. Q Clark, C-l-a-r-k? A Uh-huh. Q Did you get the opportunity to have a conversation with Mr. Epstein before or after his arraignment proceedings? A I did not have the opportunity to talk to him in the courtroom. And I don't believe that he saw me in the courtroom, because I only saw the back of his head. Q And did you have any other conversations with Mr. Epstein after this arraignment proceeding? A I did not. Q Did he ever try to reach out to you that you're aware of? A Did he try to reach out to me to communicate with me? No. He -- at some point in the days after his arraignment, I was asked whether or not I would consider joining the defense team. Q And who asked you that? A My best recollection is that Mr. Indyke, Darren Indyke, who was Mr. Epstein's lawyer, asked me. Q And what did you say to Mr. Indyke about the ask? A I declined to join the defense team."
9790,15,30,Page 31,,,"Q And why did you decline? A Well, I had no interest in being involved in that defense. Q And why is that? A At that time, I had now seen the indictment. The charges were -- the charges covered the timeframe 2002 to 2005, so a good, you know, decade-plus since I had met him. So it covered, you know, a period of time that I believed had been investigated thoroughly by the State and Federal prosecutors in Florida. And, again, my understanding is that the conclusion reached as a result of that investigation was that Mr. Epstein did not intentionally recruit minors for commercial sex. And the Southern District of New York indictment specifically alleged that he had intentionally enticed and recruited minors, that this was something that they had evidence that they had presented to a grand jury. And that was a wholly different, worse, and more sinister conduct than I had understood. I had no interest in being involved in the defense. Q And you mentioned you saw the 2019 indictment. You had re-seen facts of the 2002-2005 timeframe, the State investigation in Florida, the Federal investigation then, which led to his incarceration in Florida. You had talked to him about his previous legal issues, as you mentioned earlier. What did Mr. Epstein convey to you about what happened in his first Florida legal issues? What were your impressions of what had happened? A Well, I can tell you what he told me, and then I can tell -- well, let me tell you what he told me. And, again, this is something that he told me, to the best of my recollection, within -- I don't believe it was the first meeting, but it was certainly the second or third meeting. He told me that he had -- at his home in Palm Beach, that he had arranged for women to come to his home and provide massages to him and that some of those massages were sexual in nature and that he had -- that he, you know, had paid for each of these massages, he paid cash for"
9791,15,31,Page 32,,,"each of the massages, and that some of -- a small number of the masseuses or the women who were coming to his home were -- turned out to be under the age of 18, but that he did not have knowledge of that, and that the women, as he described to me, you know, many of them worked in local massage parlors in Florida."
9792,15,32,Page 33,,,"[11:08 a.m.] BY MR. GRANT: Q And did you believe his story? A I believed it, not because that's what he told me; I believed it because, based on my experience as a Federal prosecutor, I knew that the State -- the State Attorney's Office in Florida, and in particular the chief of the Sex Crimes Division there, had led the investigation of Epstein, and that the conclusion of that investigation was a single -- an indictment for a single count of solicitation of prostitution, and that, then, the Federal Government, the U.S. Attorney's Office in Miami, which based on my experience -- my long experience in the department and in particular my service as the principal associate deputy attorney general, the Miami office reputationally was a very aggressive office. And, in fact, particularly during the period of time that I was working on the Enron investigation, Main Justice was very frequently recruiting people from Miami to come up to Main Justice because it was viewed as, like, you know, the hard charging office. And I understood that they had investigated the case, you know, for a lengthy period of time with all of the tools available to prosecutors, you know, search warrants, I didn't know whether they used wire taps or whatever. But, you know, that -- and the result of that investigation, the outcome of that investigation was a decision not to prosecute Epstein and to, you know, require him to enter into a nonprosecution agreement. And then he told me, which I, you know, knew through factual sources -- I mean, through the record in the matter, that he had received an 18-month sentence. He received 12 months on one count, 6 months on another count. He had served 13 months of that sentence, and most of that 13 months, it had actually been served on work release. So what he told me about the case was consistent with the outcome. And then in addition -- I should say this. What he told me about his conduct in the case, and the key issue in my mind being, did this guy intentionally target minors for, you know, for commercial"
9793,15,33,Page 34,,,"sex or was he more -- was he like a customer or a “John” and this is a prostitution case where some of the individuals were underage but that he didn't know that? Okay? And, importantly, he provided me with this letter that was a lengthy -- a lengthy submission by an attorney named Stephanie Thacker, who I knew to be a sitting -- at the time I read the letter, I knew to be a sitting Federal Court of Appeals judge. And the importance to me about the letter, which I read at the time, was that it wasn't just that it was an advocacy piece that a defense lawyer submitted, but it was written to the Deputy Attorney General's office and it was a analysis and a -- about the evidence that had been uncovered in the case. And she stated unequivocally that there was not evidence that Epstein had targeted minors for sex. And she wouldn't -- you have to remember that, you know, I was the Principal Associate Deputy Attorney General, and so those kinds of letters came to me when I sat in that seat, those types of letters. Obviously not this letter. I wasn't there then. But the last thing a lawyer would do is go to the Justice Department and say ""the evidence shows this"" to the people who know what the evidence actually is, because if you did that and you were misstating the evidence, you would have zero credibility. So that letter was -- really formed the basis of my understanding of what his prior conduct in Florida was, and that letter was consistent with what he told me and corroborated what he told me. Q Were you shocked at all that Mr. Epstein was granted pretty compassionate work release? A I didn't know anything about the circumstances of that. You know, I didn't -- I certainly -- ""compassionate release"" in law enforcement circles has a particular – it has a very specific meaning, and it typically has to do with poor health or something like that. I didn't understand it to be anything along those lines. I believed that the State -- you know, ultimately, this was a State resolution that the Federal Government, you know -- the Federal Government had made a decision not to prosecute him, but it was a State resolution. And the inference that I drew as a former Federal"
9794,15,34,Page 35,,,"prosecutor is that they reached the conclusion that he wasn't, you know, some kind of threat to the community. And, again, that was also something that was consistent with someone who the evidence showed didn't intentionally target minors for sex. So it was just another factor, if you will, that, again, drawing on my experience, suggested to me that this case was a case in which he was a -- you know, he was a customer of -- a prostitution customer. Q Thank you. Mr. Emmer. We've had another member join. Can he please announce himself for the record? Mr. Menefee. Yeah. Congressman Christian Menefee, Texas 18. Mr. Grant. Thank you, sir. BY MR. GRANT: Q Switching gears a little bit -- we're coming towards the end of our first hour here -- have you ever met Ghislaine Maxwell? A Yes. Q And when did you first meet Ms. Maxwell? A I've only met her once. The context of meeting her was that she was involved in civil litigation, and her lawyer -- there was either -- the litigation was in New York, and her lawyer -- there was some type of proceeding in the case. And as is very common in practice, her lawyer asked whether she could -- they could use a conference room as a professional courtesy at my law firm because her lawyer didn't have an office in New York. And so when they came to use the conference room, I went by to say hello as a professional courtesy. Q Did Mr. Epstein inform you that she would have a lawyer reaching out to you? A No. No. The lawyer had asked, again, if -- her lawyer had asked whether she could use a conference room at my law firm as a professional courtesy and, of course, I said yes."
9795,15,35,Page 36,,,"Q And roughly when was this? A Gosh, I don't remember. I don't remember what year that was. Q Were you aware of Ms. Maxwell's relationship with Mr. Epstein at this time? A I knew that he knew her, and I knew that she had been the subject of public allegations at the time. But I didn't know anything about, you know, what his relationship was with her. Q Did Mr. Epstein discuss those public allegations of Ms. Maxwell with you? A About Ms. Maxwell or about -- there were -- yes, insofar as they were part of a set of allegations that were made by a woman who said she had been victimized by Epstein and many others. So they were all related to allegations put forth by, you know, one victim, and the allegations were extensive. Q And did Mr. Epstein discuss those allegations with you? A Yes. Q And -- A He did to the extent that there were media inquiries around -- arising from those allegations. So it was in the context of media inquiries that he, you know, he talked to me about it or asked my point of view about it. Q And did he explain any of the details or facts to you or try to make a case to you of why they were or were not true? A He just told me that they weren't true. There wasn't quite -- you know, just quite unequivocally. Q And then other than this one time Ms. Maxwell used the office at your law firm, did you have any other interactions with Ms. Maxwell? A No. Q Any other communications? A No."
9796,15,36,Page 37,,,"Q Meetings? A No. Q Were you aware that Mr. Epstein regularly entertained young women at his residences? A Entertained? No. Q When around Mr. Epstein, how did Mr. Epstein act towards the young women or girls that were around him? A I never saw any girls. I never saw any girls around him at all, if you -- by that you mean anyone under the age of 18. Q Any young women at all? Twenties? Low thirties? A Well, I wouldn't refer to women in their twenties as girls, so I'm just trying to be precise as to language. I never saw anybody under the age of 18 in Mr. Epstein's presence, with the exception of a meeting where I was attending with my client and my client's -- one of my client's daughters. Q Did Mr. Epstein ever discuss his relationships with young women in your presence? A He did not discuss his relationships with women. I knew he -- he had a girlfriend that I met on one or two occasions when I went to his townhouse for meetings. And his girlfriend was the same girlfriend for the entire period of time I knew him, and she was -- I didn't ask how old she was, but to my eye, she looked 30. Q And who was that girlfriend? A Her first name is Karyna. I can't remember her last name. Q Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein engage in any sexual contact? A Absolutely not. Q Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein have sexual contact of any kind with any young woman or girl? A No."
9797,15,37,Page 38,,,"Q Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein sexually abuse or assault young women or girls? A No. Q Did Mr. Epstein ever discuss sexual acts of any kind with you? A No. Mr. Fishman. Except for what she's already described. Ms. Ruemmler. Except for the historical conduct -- Mr. Grant. Understood. Ms. Ruemmler. -- that led to his guilty plea in Florida. Mr. Grant. Understood. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein receive a massage from a young woman or girl? A No. Q Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein pay women for massages? A No. Q Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein giving cash to young women or girls? A No. Q Did you ever hear about Mr. Epstein receiving massages? A No, other than what we previously talked about, the conduct arising to his -- that gave rise to his guilty plea. Q Did Mr. Epstein ever discuss getting massages? A No, other than, again, what he told me about the conduct that caused him -- that forced him to plead guilty in 2008. Q Did you ever receive any massage from any young woman or girl brought to you by or introduced to you by Mr. Epstein? A Absolutely not."
9798,15,38,Page 39,,,"Q Have you ever been contacted by any law enforcement agency concerning Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell? A No. Q Have you ever been interviewed by any law enforcement agency concerning Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell? A No. Q Have you ever provided any information to any law enforcement agency concerning Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell? A No. Q Did Jeffrey Epstein ever inform or represent to you that he was working with any intelligence service of any nation, including the United States? A No. Q Did Ghislaine Maxwell ever inform or represent to you that she was working with any intelligence service of any nation, including the United States? A No. Q During your relationship with Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell, did you ever suspect either of them being affiliated with any intelligence agency? A I had no relationship with Ghislaine Maxwell. The answer to both of them is no. Q And at any time, have you had an affiliation with any intelligence agency? A Well, by affiliation, I was a White House counsel and a senior Justice Department official. In that capacity, I dealt with the DNI, the CIA, the NSA -- Q But you did not formally work -- A -- DOD. Q You did not formally work -- A Senate Intelligence Committee, House Intelligence Committee."
9799,15,39,Page 40,,,"Q You did not formally work for any of those agencies? A I did not, no. Mr. Grant. And we've had another Member of Congress join us. Could she please introduce herself for the record? Ms. Ansari. Yassamin Ansari, Arizona's Third District. Mr. Grant. Thank you. And that will conclude our first hour. [Recess.] Mr. . Let's go back on the record. Ms. Crockett. And for purposes of the record, Representative Jasmine Crockett, Texas 30, is present. Mr. . Mr. Lynch, could you please introduce yourself for the record? Mr. Lynch. Sure. Congressman Steve Lynch, Eighth Congressional District of Massachusetts. Mr. . I just have one note before we begin. To the extent that any of our questions or your answers contain the names of survivors or their identifying information, we would ask that the majority redact that information prior to releasing the transcript publicly. And with that, let's get started. EXAMINATION BY MR. : Q So, Ms. Ruemmler, in the majority's first hour, you talked a bit about attending Mr. Epstein's 2019 arraignment -- A Yes. Q -- and hearing the charges -- A Yes. Q -- and learning about those charges in the indictment. Do you remember what those"
9800,15,40,Page 41,,,"charges were? A I do. In general, it was conspiracy to engage in sex trafficking. I believe it was two counts. One was a conspiracy count, and the second one was, you know, what we would call a substantive count of sex trafficking. And in particular, the indictment alleged that Epstein had enticed and recruited minors, minor girls, for sex in exchange for cash. Q Do you recall what he used to entice or recruit those minors? A Well, not specifically. I don't remember that the indictment was specific in that regard. You know, typically, for a Federal indictment, there would need to be some instrumentality of interstate commerce so, you know, a phone call, you know, an email or something like that. So that certainly would have been present, you know, in some respect. Q And at the arraignment you were at, the government told the court that Mr. Epstein's victims were, quote, initially recruited to provide massages to the defendant which would be performed nude or partially nude, would become increasingly sexual in nature, and would typically include one or more sex acts. That sound familiar? A That is consistent with my understanding of what the charges were, yes. If I don't remember those specific words, yes. [Ruemmler Minority Exhibit A was marked for identification.] BY MR. : Q I will now introduce minority exhibit A, which is a February 2016 email between you and Mr. Epstein. A Yes. Q Mr. Epstein asked you, quote, ""we all set for a day of joy?"" A Yes. Q Can you read for the record what you responded to Mr. Epstein?"
9801,15,41,Page 42,,,"A Yes. I said, ""Best massage ever but not your kind of massage."" Q And he replied, ""Shame."" A Yes. Q By February 2016, were you aware that Mr. Epstein had used massage appointments to entrap the girls and women he victimized? A What I understood -- you know, as I stated this morning, I certainly knew that he had pled guilty to two prostitution-related offenses and that those -- that those involved -- that conduct involved sexualized massages. What I understood about the nature and scope of that conduct was that the vast majority of the women who had engaged in this activity with Mr. Epstein were over the age of 18, that some small number had turned out to be under the age of 18 but he had believed them to be over the age of 18. So -- Q Let's pause for a second. A Sure. Mr. Lynch. I'm sorry. I just want to understand, are we going to see the exhibits? Ms. Crockett. I was just going to ask, do you mind speaking up just a little bit? Ms. Ruemmler. Oh, sure. Ms. Crockett. You kind of faded off towards the end of your last statement. Ms. Ruemmler. Okay. No problem. Absolutely. Mr. . We'll go back on the record. Ms. Ruemmler. Okay. So as I was saying, I was certainly aware that he had pled guilty to prostitution-related offenses that involved sexualized massages. I knew that -- he was open to me -- with me about it, or so I believed, about the nature of his conduct, as I discussed at some length this morning. So what I was making here was an offhanded joke that, certainly sitting here in 2026, is in"
9802,15,42,Page 43,,,"extraordinarily poor taste, but it was a joke about his prior criminal history. BY MR. : Q So when you wrote ""Best massage ever, but not your kind of massage,"" you were referring to how he used massage to entice his victims? A No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Again, as we discussed at length this morning, I understood that the conduct that Mr. Epstein had engaged in, as stated by Ms. Thacker in the letter to the deputy attorney general, was that Mr. Epstein was in essence a customer or a “John.” Okay? Taking a step back for a second, I had been a prosecutor in the D.C U.S. Attorney's Office, and as a young, you know, prosecutor in that office -- Q Before we take a step back, let's take a step forward. A Okay. Q What kind of massage were you referring to? A For me? Q When you wrote ""Best massage ever, but not your kind of massage"" to Jeffrey Epstein, what was his kind of massage? A Let me explain the context of this email. Epstein had, I believe as a holiday Christmas gift, had given me a half day spa day at The Peninsula Hotel. Okay? And that's what he's referring -- when he's saying, ""we all set for a day of joy?"", he's saying are you going to have a nice day at the Peninsula spa, where I was able to, you know, to pick -- again, it was a gift -- I was able to pick whatever I wanted to do at the Peninsula spa, which is a lovely place in New York, if you haven't -- Q That's right. Your emails -- the emails between Mr. Epstein and his assistant, Lesley Groff, they call it Kathy Ruemmler's pampered weekend. And then Ms. Groff and you email, and you told Ms. Groff, quote, ""Jeffrey's so thoughtful as always."" So yes. A Okay. So yes. And so he then asks me, basically, you know, are you all set to go have a,"
9803,15,43,Page 44,,,"you know, nice day at the spa, essentially. Q ""A day of joy."" A A day -- and so then after I go to the spa -- so it's the following day. I had gone on a Saturday. I believe I went on a Saturday morning. And so I wrote back and said, you know, ""Best massage ever,"" meaning I had a very nice massage at the spa. And I said ""but not your kind of a massage."" Yes. That was a joke to him about the fact that he had engaged in the crime of prostitution where the act, again, as I understood it, was that he had paid women to give him sexualized massages. Now, what I wanted to say, taking a step back -- so, again, as I stated, I wish I had never met Jeffrey Epstein. I wish I never dealt with the guy. It was a mistake to deal with him. I wish I -- certainly wish I'd never emailed with him. And sitting here, you know, 10 years later, in light of everything we know now, this is a joke where I'm -- I am using humor to basically, again, sort of call him out on the fact that he had this conviction. And it's in poor taste. But when I was a -- when I was a prosecutor and I was doing prostitution cases, at this -- in the period of time -- so this -- when I was doing prostitution cases, it would have been, you know, 2001, 2002. In the District of Columbia, the crime of prostitution is the agreement between an individual who is seeking sex and someone who was willing to provide sex for money. The crime is the agreement. Okay? And we were instructed -- it was, you know, the policy of the office at the time that because the crime was the agreement, that both the “John” -- and I'm using the law enforcement terms -- the “John” and the prostitute were both prosecuted. They were both prosecuted equally. Q Can a minor be a prostitute? A Absolutely not. Q You told Jeffrey Epstein that -- A Absolutely not."
9804,15,44,Page 45,,,"Q -- at least on one occasion. Is that right? A Under the law, a minor -- under State law, a minor cannot consent to prostitution. Yes. I agree with you entirely. Q You mentioned this letter from a lawyer, Thacker, that you refer to a lot. A Yes. Q We will talk about that later. But that letter references massage, I don't know, 18 times. It recounts allegation after allegation of how Mr. Epstein used massage to entice victims. A Yes. Q So that's more than just Jeffrey Epstein paying for sex one time in 2007, right? A Oh, I have never suggested that I believed he had paid for sex for one time. Q So then were you -- so what were you referring to? Were you referring to the full range of his alleged conduct that you were aware of? A This was an offhand remark -- I certainly wasn't referring to the full range of his conduct, you know, in a one-sentence, offhand joke that, as I've said to you sitting here today, was in very poor taste. Q Did you think one of the issues here -- he bought you this massage. This was not the first or last massage that he had bought you, nor was it the only time you discussed massages with him. So given what you knew then, why did you accept any massages from Jeffrey Epstein -- A Okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Q -- and why were you joking about what he did with them? A He gave me as a gift, okay, so -- he gave me as a gift a half day at the spa at The Peninsula Hotel in New York City. I think I also got a facial that day. I don't remember. But in any event, when I go to the spa -- which I have gone to many, many, many times over the course of my life, and I have gone to spa resorts. A lot of women go to spas. And in 99 percent of those cases, I've paid for my own massage. As a gift, he gave me a half day at the Peninsula spa, and I got a massage."
9805,15,45,Page 46,,,"That is what this is. Q You knew he was a registered sex offender at that time, right? A Yes. Q So why were you accepting gifts of massages from a registered sex offender whose offenses including getting massages? A I can't even follow the logic of your question. Mr. . What part don't you understand? Ms. Ruemmler. I don't understand -- I don't understand the question. Mr. . Do you want to repeat the question? Mr. . Let me ask it differently. BY MR. : Q Did you ever think of his underage victims at any point and think, ""Hey, I'm not going to accept a massage from Jeffrey Epstein,"" or ""I'm not going to joke about Jeffrey Epstein's history of massage,"" or ""I'm not even going to talk about massages with Jeffrey Epstein""? A As I said, I didn't accept a massage from Jeffrey Epstein. He bought me, as a gift, a day at a very well-established hotel spa in New York City. And I accepted it because, as I stated, he was the primary advisor to a client of mine. There was no reason not to accept it. It was a nice gesture, and I accepted it. Q Let's move on. A It's not more complicated than that. Q So the 2019 indictment, at the arraignment the government said that Mr. Epstein engaged in a years-long scheme to sexually abuse underage girls, paying minor girls to themselves be abused, and also paying certain victims to recruit other girls to be subject to the defendant's sexual abuse. [Ruemmler Minority Exhibit B"
9806,15,46,Page 47,,,"was marked for identification.] BY MR. : Q Let's introduce as minority exhibit B an email exchange between you and Mr. Epstein from September 19th, 2014. In it, Mr. Epstein wrote, quote, ""girls?, careful, I will renew an old habit."" Page 4. A Yes. I see it. Q We've already established that you were aware of the allegation against Mr. Epstein because you had read the Thacker letter at this point. Did you consider whether Mr. Epstein was referring to his past sex crimes involving young girls when he said, ""girls?, careful, I will renew an old habit""? A Okay. First of all, I don't know whether I had read the Thacker letter in September of 2014. I had, you know -- I'd only met with Mr. Epstein, I think, twice at that point. So just to put that in characterization -- in the proper context. But I remember this email very -- notwithstanding it was 12 years ago, I remember this email very specifically. And during either the first or the second meeting that I had with Epstein, in the course of the conversation, and it may have actually been in reference to -- reference to me, he referred to women as girls. Okay? And I said to him, Don't refer to women as girls. Unfortunately, I'm now 55 years old, and I've been, you know, a practicing lawyer for a long time, and I have been referred to as a girl by many men in many contexts. And I said, Don't do that. And so I write ""Most girls do not have to worry about that crap."" I'm basically, in my email, referring back to that conversation. Okay? Like, ""Hey, knucklehead."" I'm referring to myself here. ""Most girls don't have to worry about this crap."" Then he responds, ""girls, question mark, careful, I will renew an old habit."" Q So it was something of an inside joke between the two of you? A About language."
9807,15,47,Page 48,,,"Q Got it. [Ruemmler Minority Exhibit C was marked for identification.] BY MR. : Q All right. Let's move on to minority exhibit C. This is Bates number EFTA02510803. This is a March 4th, 2015, email exchange. And the portion I'd like to talk about is on page 1. Mr. Fishman. Can you give us a minute? Takes us a while to get it down the table. Mr. . Do you see where you wrote to him, ""Darling, I am not one of your young things""? Ms. Ruemmler. Yes, I do. Mr. . What were you referring to? Mr. Fishman. Do you mind if she looks at the whole document first? Mr. . Absolutely. Ms. Ruemmler. So the context here is that I was doing a lot of international travel in the course of my law practice. And I can tell that -- I can tell from the context here that I had just -- I had just landed in China, because I had -- I say I had a loaner BlackBerry that makes outgoing calls. So as any of the members in the room who have traveled to China know, that's typically the protocol that you would use when traveling to China. And he, again in very typical fashion, in a -- I am complaining about the fact that I'm tired from all of the travel. And he patronizingly tells me that I can figure out a way to travel better. BY MR. : Q And then you reply? A And then I reply, again, in sort of a snarky way, you know, I'm not one of your young things. Remember, he had a -- his girlfriend was probably 15 years younger than me and -- at that time. And I said, I've been doing this for 20 years, and despite well-honed skills, it still sucks."
9808,15,48,Page 49,,,"Q So there was his girlfriend, but you said ""your young things."" So -- A Well, he also had -- Q -- who are you referring to? A He also had staff, you know, several women in their, you know, late 20s, early 30s, who were on his staff who traveled with him. And so I'm basically saying, don't -- again, Don't mansplain me. I'm cranky. Again, he's asking for something. He wants me to call him or something. And I've just landed in China -- Q What do you remember -- A -- where I probably didn't want to be. Q -- about those staff? A Pardon? Q The staff you just mentioned, what do you remember about them? A I remember that he had quite a large staff, and he had, you know, women and men on his staff. And he had some assistants, personal assistants. Q Do you know if all the women on his staff were American? Were any of them foreign? A Some of them were Russian and Eastern European, yes. [Ruemmler Minority Exhibit D was marked for identification.] BY MR. : Q All right. Let's introduce minority exhibit D, Bates number EFTA02395303. This is a June 2016 email exchange -- A Yes. Q -- between you and Mr. Epstein regarding a possible opportunity for you with a hedge fund called Citadel. In this exchange, Mr. Epstein suggested that Citadel CEO Ken Griffin, quote, ""might just be interested in a woman."" You responded, quote, ""Oh, Jesus -- meaning you are going"
9809,15,49,Page 50,,,"to trade one of your Russians for my comp?"", end quote. What did you mean by, quote, ""one of your Russians""? A I think I'm looking at a different email exchange. Ms. Cotton. Yeah. I think you skipped some lines or we have the wrong version. Ms. Ruemmler. We have a different version of the email. Mr. . Let's go off the record for a second. [Discussion off the record.] Mr. . Let's go back on the record. What did you mean by, quote, ""one of your Russians""? Mr. Fishman. Again, do you mind if she reads the entire chain? Mr. . Absolutely. Ms. Ruemmler. Okay. The context of this is that I had received outreach from the soon-to-be retiring chief legal officer of Citadel about whether I would be willing to take a meeting about potentially accepting that job. I didn't know anything about Citadel, frankly. You know, I'd spent the vast majority of my career in public service at this point, and I certainly wasn't -- at this point in time, I certainly wasn't, like, a Wall Street person. And so Epstein was the finance guy. He was like the Wall Street guy. So I asked him, you know, what do you -- I asked him, I infer from this email over the phone, what do you know about Citadel? And, again, in typical Epstein fashion, he immediately jumps in to, I can negotiate your compensation. So I didn't ask him -- I didn't have an offer from Citadel, and he's already talking about how he's going to negotiate my compensation. BY MR. : Q That's clear he is jumping in to talk about helping you, hypothetically, get this job at Citadel and negotiating your compensation. A No, no, no. He's not --"