id,deposition_id,segment_index,speaker,start_seconds,end_seconds,text
9221,11,0,Page 1,,,"COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, WASHINGTON, D.C. INTERVIEW OF: LESLIE GROFF Tuesday, June 9, 2026 Washington, D.C. The interview in the above matter was held in Room 2247, Rayburn House Office Building, commencing at 10:00 a.m. Present: Representatives Comer, Higgins, Biggs, Perry, Timmons, Boebert, Lynch, Krishnamoorthi, Khanna, Stansbury, Garcia, Randall, Subramanyam, Ansari, Bell, Tlaib, and Walkinshaw."
9222,11,1,Page 2,,,"Appearances: For the COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM: DANIEL ASHWORTH, GENERAL COUNSEL BRITTANY BRIGNAC, SENIOR COUNSEL HANNAH CATHEY, PROFESSIONAL STAFF MEMBER JESSICA COLLINS, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR JACK EMMER, CHIEF COUNSEL FOR INVESTIGATIONS EMILY FEYERABEND, COUNSEL RYAN GIACHETTI, CHIEF COUNSEL BILLY GRANT, DEPUTY CHIEF COUNSEL FOR INVESTIGATIONS WILL HARNICE, PROFESSIONAL STAFF MEMBER FREDERICK HILL, SENIOR ADVISOR MARK MARIN, STAFF DIRECTOR PETER SPECTRE, DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR OVERSIGHT ELLISON TOLAN, COUNSEL ASHLEE VINYARD, DEPUTY STAFF DIRECTOR , MINORITY DEPUTY STAFF DIRECTOR , MINORITY POLICY DIRECTOR , MINORITY STAFF DIRECTOR , MINORITY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR"
9223,11,2,Page 3,,,", MINORITY RESEARCH ASSISTANT , MINORITY RESEARCH ANALYST , MINORITY INTERN , MINORITY SENIOR COUNSEL , MINORITY PRESS SECRETARY , MINORITY SENIOR COUNSEL MINORITY FELLOW , MINORITY SENIOR ADVISOR , MINORITY LEGAL INTERN , MINORITY CHIEF COUNSEL For LESLEY GROFF: MICHAEL BACHNER Bachner & Associates, P.C. 111 Broadway, Suite 701 New York, NY 10006 JONATHAN P. WHITCOMB Diserio Martin 1010 Washington Blvd., Suite 800 Stamford, CT 06901"
9224,11,3,Page 4,,,"ALSO PRESENT: MARGARET KIBBEN, CHAPLAIN, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES DANIEL GROFF PETER HULL ASHLEY TAYLOR-HULL"
9225,11,4,Page 5,,,"Ms. Tolan. We'll go on the record. This is a transcribed interview of Ms. Lesley Groff conducted by the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform under the authority granted to it pursuant to House rule X. Accordingly, House rule X grants the committee broad jurisdiction for the committee to conduct investigations of any matter at any time. This interview was requested by Chairman James Comer as part of the committee's investigation into the circumstances and subsequent investigations into the crimes of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell; the operation of sex trafficking rings and ways for the Federal Government to effectively combat them; the ways in which Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell sought to curry favor and exercise influence to protect their illegal activities; and potential violations of ethics rules related to elected officials. Can the witness please state her name and spell her last name for the record? Ms. Groff. Lesley Groff, G-r-o-f-f. Ms. Tolan. Thank you. I want to thank Ms. Groff for appearing here today. My name is Ellison Tolan, and I'm counsel for Chairman James Comer. Under the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform's rules, you are allowed to have counsel present to advise you during this interview. Do you have counsel representing you in a personal capacity present with you today? Ms. Groff. I do. Ms. Tolan. Will counsel please identify themselves for the record? Mr. Bachner. Good morning. Michael Bachner, B-a-c-h-n-e-r, Bachner & Associates, PC, for Ms. Groff. Mr. Whitcomb. Good morning, Jon Whitcomb for Ms. Groff. Ms. Tolan. Thank you. We have some Members of Congress here with us today. For the record, starting with the Chairman, can the Members please identify themselves."
9226,11,5,Page 6,,,"Chairman Comer. James Comer, Chairman, Kentucky. Ms. Tolan. Now, for the record, starting with the majority staff, can the additional staff members please introduce themselves with their name, title, and affiliation. Ms. Brignac. Brittany Brignac, senior counsel for Chairman Comer. Mr. Emmer. Jack Emmer, chief counsel for investigations for Chairman Comer. Mr. Ashworth. Daniel Ashworth, general counsel for Chairman Comer. Ms. Feyerabend. Emily Feyerabend, counsel for Chairman Comer. Mr. Grant. Billy Grant, deputy chief counsel for investigations for Chairman Comer. Mr. Marin. Mark Marin, staff director for Chairman Comer. Mr. Spectre. Peter Spectre, director of oversight for Chairman Comer. Mr. Harnice. Will Harnice, professional staff member for Chairman Comer. Ms. Cathey. Hannah Cathey, professional staff member, Chairman Comer. Ms. Collins. Jessica Collins, communications director for Chairman Comer. Ms. Vinyard. Ashlee Vinyard, deputy staff director, Chairman Comer. Mr. . , deputy staff director, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. . , chief counsel, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. . , senior counsel, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. . , staff director, Ranking Member Garcia. Chaplain Kibben. Margaret Kibben, Chaplain of the House of Representatives. Ms. . , research assistant, Ranking Member Garcia. Ms. . , research analyst, Ranking Member Garcia. Ms. . , press secretary, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. . , legal intern, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. . , legal intern, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. . fellow, Ranking Member Garcia."
9227,11,6,Page 7,,,"Ms. . , senior counsel, Ranking Member Garcia. Ms. Tolan. And we have another Member who has joined us; if they would introduce themselves for the record. Mr. Higgins. Clay Higgins, Louisiana. Ms. Tolan. Thank you. Ms. Groff, before we begin, I would like to go over the ground rules for this interview. The questioning will proceed in rounds. The majority will ask questions for up to an hour, and then the minority will have an opportunity to ask questions for up to an hour, if they choose. To the extent Members have questions for the witness, they will be propounded during their side's respective rounds. The clock will stop if you need to confer with counsel, your counsel is speaking, and when Members or staff are speaking during the opposing side's rounds of questions. We will alternate back and forth until there are no more questions. Do you understand? Ms. Groff. I do. Ms. Tolan. There is a court reporter taking down everything I say and everything you say to make a written record of the interview. For the record to be clear, please wait until the staffer questioning you finishes each question before you begin your answer, and the staffer will wait until you finish your response before proceeding to the next question. Further, to ensure the court reporter can properly record this interview, please speak clearly, concisely, and slowly. Also, the court reporter cannot record nonverbal answers, such as nodding or shaking your head. So it is important that you answer each question with an audible, verbal answer. Do you understand? Ms. Groff. I do. Ms. Tolan. Exhibits may be entered into the record. Majority exhibits will be identified"
9228,11,7,Page 8,,,"numerically. Minority exhibits will be identified alphabetically. We want you to answer our questions in the most complete and truthful manner possible. So we will take our time. If you have any questions or do not fully understand the question, please let us know. We will attempt to clarify, add context to, or rephrase our questions. If we ask about specific conversations or events in the past and you are unable to recall the exact words or details, you should testify to the substance of those conversations or events to the best of your recollection. If you recall only a part of a conversation or event, you should give us your best recollection of those events or parts of the conversation that you do recall. Do you understand? Ms. Groff. I do. Ms. Tolan. Although you are here voluntarily, you are required by law, pursuant to title 18 of the United States Code, section 1001, to answer questions from Congress truthfully. This also applies to questions posed by congressional staff in this interview. Do you understand? Ms. Groff. I do. Ms. Tolan. If at any time you knowingly make false statements, you could be subject to criminal prosecution. Do you understand? Ms. Groff. I do. Ms. Tolan. This includes both knowingly providing false testimony but also stating that you do not recall or remember something when you, in fact, do. Do you understand? Ms. Groff. I do. Ms. Tolan. Furthermore, you cannot tell half-truths or exclude information necessary to make statements accurate. You're required to provide all information that would make your response"
9229,11,8,Page 9,,,"truthful. A deliberate failure to disclose information can constitute a false statement. Do you understand? Ms. Groff. I do. Ms. Tolan. Is there any reason you are unable to provide truthful testimony in today's interview? Ms. Groff. No. Ms. Tolan. Please note that, if you wish to assert a privilege over any statement today, that assertion must comply with the rules of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. Pursuant to that, Committee rule 16(c)(1) states, for the chair to consider assertions of privilege over testimony or statements, witnesses or entities must clearly state the specific privilege being asserted and the reason for the assertion on or before the scheduled date of testimony or appearance. Do you understand? Ms. Groff. I do. Ms. Tolan. Ordinarily, we take a 5-minute break at the end of each hour of questioning, but if you need a longer break or a break before that, please let us know, and we will be happy to accommodate. However, to the extent that there's a pending question, we would ask that you finish answering the question before we take the break. Do you understand? Ms. Groff. I do. Ms. Tolan. Do you have any other questions before we begin? Ms. Groff. I do not. Ms. Tolan. And I think -- have more Members joined the room? If they would introduce themselves for the record. Ms. Boebert. Lauren Boebert, Colorado Fourth."
9230,11,9,Page 10,,,"Mr. Subramanyam. Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia 10th. Mr. Garcia. Robert Garcia, ranking member, Democrats. Mr. Emmer. We have also had additional staff members join. Can they please identify themselves for the record? Ms. . , communications director, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. Krishnamoorthi. Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi from Illinois. Mr. Timmons. Congressman William Timmons, South Carolina. Ms. Randall. Congresswoman Emily Randall from Washington State. Mr. Emmer. We understand that Ms. Groff has family members in attendance. Can they announce themselves for the record? Mr. Groff. Yes. Daniel Groff, G-r-o-f-f. Ms. Taylor-Hull. I'm Ashley Taylor-Hull. Mr. Hull. And Peter Hull. Ms. Tolan. Thank you. Ms. Groff, do you have an opening statement? Ms. Groff. I do. Ms. Tolan. Feel free to read that now. Ms. Groff. Okay. Good morning. Chairman, Ranking Member, and members of the committee, my name is Lesley Groff. I have no experience in public speaking. I have never testified in court. I am introverted and shy, and this is petrifying to me. So I apologize to you if my responses are awkward. Still, I am here. I look forward to providing information to this committee voluntarily, just as I did in 2021 when I spoke voluntarily with prosecutors in New York. I want to help you in any way I can. I hope that it will prevent this evil conduct from ever occurring again. I believe that my testimony will dispel the false notions that, because of my employment with Epstein, I must have knowingly enabled or conspired with him to commit these evil acts. Nothing"
9231,11,10,Page 11,,,"could be further from the truth. Since Mr. Epstein's arrest in 2019, I struggle with sleep. I can't eat. Many of my friends and acquaintances have shunned me. For the last 7 years, my now 21-year-old son's life has been in turmoil, and I have been the target of harassment and death threats. I have chosen to speak with you to tell you the truth as I know it. My recollection of many things is generally poor since they occurred as far back as 25 years ago. I will try my very best, and I thank you for your patience. I want to say without any doubt that I have come to believe the man who employed me from February of 2001 through July of 2019 was a monster. For 18 years, I worked for Dr. Jekyll, but was never permitted to see the true Mr. Hyde. Mr. Epstein was, in hindsight, a master manipulator and deceiver who separated his legitimate life from his secret life as an abuser and made sure that, as his secretary, those two worlds did not collide. I had every reason not -- excuse me. He had every reason not to tell me about his crimes. He had no leverage on me. I was not, like Sarah Kellen -- whose testimony just broke my heart -- sexually abused by Epstein. I did not need the job. Our family was financially secure. Most importantly, I would never have sat silent if I knew of his crimes. Mr. Epstein used me and intentionally kept me on the outside of his perverted life. He did not know me when I was hired. It was nonsensical for him to confide in me, a total stranger, or allow me to learn that he was abusing women. Now, let me tell you a little about myself. I was born in Dallas and raised in a protestant home in Plano. I graduated from the University of Texas at Dallas. I moved to New Jersey in 1990 and married my first husband in '93. I worked at his office supply company. I then worked as a salesperson at Nordstrom's. After my divorce, I met my husband Ike. I decided I wanted to be an event planner. So I posted my resume on Monster.com. I was contacted by a headhunter about a job with the New York"
9232,11,11,Page 12,,,"Knicks. Unfortunately, I missed the interview because of a snowstorm in Manhattan. That same day, the headhunter asked if I was interested in working for a wealthy businessman as an administrative assistant to keep his very busy life organized. That same day, I interviewed at the Helmsley Palace with Ghislaine Maxwell and then with Mr. Epstein. They explained to me that I would be with Mr. Epstein's executive assistant -- excuse me -- secretary organizing his calendar, making appointments, and dealing with his endless calls. I could tell this was an office environment that looked exciting, challenging, and attractive to me. About a week later, I accepted the job at a salary of $50,000. From 2001 through 2009, I worked exclusively out of the Helmsley Palace. When I began working for Mr. Epstein, I was 35 years old. I was trained by , the woman I was replacing. explained that I would be inundated with calls, scheduling, and coordinating his staff to make sure that they fulfilled his often demanding work requests -- for example, making sure that he had reading glasses at every table at every one of his homes and offices, or sourcing very late in the day a dozen chocolate croissants made in New York to be delivered to Palm Beach by 9:00 the next morning. Ms. Maxwell, , and other staff also told me that Mr. Epstein's day included a morning muffin, a private yoga lesson, and a massage. For me, many of his routines were luxuries, but everyone treated them as very normal, and I was expected to arrange them as part of my job. I was astonished by the truly impressive people in his circle: past Presidents, military leaders, former politicians, foreign dignitaries, actors, musicians, scientists, authors, mathematicians, university professors, inventors, titans of business, models, fashion designers, and philanthropists. It was a world I had no experience with, and I was captivated by it. I actually felt lucky to have found such an amazing job. I was thrust into the lifestyles of the rich and famous. Mr. Epstein's directive for a massage was just another small part of that elite world I was not from and was a very small part of what was demanded of me on a daily basis. From day one,"
9233,11,12,Page 13,,,"Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell established guardrails. They made it very clear to me that I was a replaceable employee. Maxwell and Epstein told me that I was never to associate with their friends or contacts, or I would be fired. The people I spoke with in my job were their friends and colleagues -- not mine. Their business was none of my business -- and not to forget it. If I messed up an appointment, I could be fired. Frequently, Mr. Epstein yelled at me to the point of tears. When I made an error with an appointment, he screamed that I ruined his day and that the time lost could never be replaced. I recall that, weeks after I was hired, one of Mr. Epstein's contacts invited me to attend a party with my husband in New York City. The next workday, Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell, who were not at the party, somehow found out that I had attended, and they torched me. They told me I had crossed a line into his social life, and I would be fired. Instead, Mr. Epstein put me on probation. He ordered me to completely separate myself from his personal world. In hindsight, I wish he had fired me. Since that time 25 years ago, I have never socialized with Mr. Epstein or Ms. Maxwell. I have never been on his airplane. I have never been to one of his parties. I never visited him in jail after he was convicted in 2008 or after he was arrested in 2019. I never accompanied him to Little Saint James or to Zorro Ranch or to his Palm Beach residence. In fact, in my 18 years as his secretary, I've been to Little Saint James three times: once with my husband and twice for work to view construction projects. These visits were during the day and lasted only a couple of hours. I stayed at his Paris guest apartment once with my husband. Mr. Epstein was not there. From 2001 to 2009, I worked exclusively at the Helmsley Palace. When you entered the reception area, my office was located in the rear of the suite, and I could not see who entered or exited. Visitors were able to enter and leave Mr. Epstein's office through a separate entrance"
9234,11,13,Page 14,,,"without seeing them -- without me seeing them. In 2009, the offices moved to 66th Street, then to 575 Lexington Avenue, and then, around 2013, to his mansion on 71st Street. Not once did I see or hear anything illegal. Every morning Mr. Epstein called me at 9 a.m. with literally dozens of matters for me to complete that day. I had no free time. I went from task to task. I had two phones on my desk ringing constantly. Almost daily, I made massage appointments for Mr. Epstein. He provided me the name and telephone number of a masseuse, and I called her. These calls lasted literally a few seconds. ""Hi, this is Lesley calling for Mr. Epstein; are you available for a massage at 4:00?"" Sometimes masseuses called the office and asked if Mr. Epstein wanted a massage. On occasion, Mr. Epstein directed me to arrange massages for his guests, both men and women, at hotels and spas. To me, the few minutes it took to arrange massages for Mr. Epstein were just part of his routine, like going to the gym was for some people. From 2001 to about 2013, I never stepped foot in the mansion, nor have I ever been in the private quarters of his home, including where the massages took place. I have never seen photos of nude women there. From in or about 2005 to 2007, when I became pregnant and gave birth to my son, I was rarely at the office. I had a job-sharing agreement with , who had also just given birth, and I worked from home at least 2 days a week. I only came into the office on the rare occasion when Mr. Epstein was there. It is important for the committee to understand that, to my knowledge, I never met any of these masseuses. None of these women or anyone else ever told me they were minors or that they were sexually abused. Nothing I heard or saw led me to believe otherwise. Even Sarah Kellen, who courageously told this committee about her sexual abuse, confirmed that she never told me of her abuse even though we spoke with each other."
9235,11,14,Page 15,,,"Finally, I wish to address why I did not leave Epstein's employ. After his arrest in 2008, my experience in that regard was similar to Ms. Kellen's and others. Like Sarah, it was not until sometime after Mr. Epstein's conviction that I learned the government and Mr. Epstein's lawyers had included me and others in the nonprosecution agreement as potential conspirators. I am not a conspirator, and I never would have agreed to this language. Their unilateral decision to label me as a potential conspirator remains my scarlet letter. After his arrest in 2008, Epstein lied to me and insisted that he had been blackmailed and set up. His attorney told me the same thing. He angrily said that the allegations against him were false, and he had no idea that the women he had contact with was a minor. It was a shakedown, he claimed, for money. In my mind, that was the reason that he was treated so leniently by law enforcement for such a serious crime. Although I considered resigning, Epstein convinced me to remain. He played on my loyal nature. I actually believed that he had been set up. I believed that he could be kind and generous and caring because of the way he often treated me and others. I know now that this kindness was a facade and just a part of his manipulation. I also saw the same VIPs continue to surround Epstein after his conviction. I know now that everything he did was a scheme intended to protect himself. Members of the committee, my heart breaks for these women. I believe them. Words cannot express how badly I feel that I was employed by Mr. Epstein during the time he abused these women. I will live with that horrible feeling for the rest of my life. But what I cannot and should not live with are the false innuendos and accusations that I knowingly aided his evil conduct, and that is why I'm here today. Thank you. Ms. Tolan. Thank you. The time -- Mr. Emmer. We've had another Member join. Can she please announce herself for the record?"
9236,11,15,Page 16,,,"Ms. Stansbury. Hi. I'm Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico's First Congressional District. Ms. Tolan. The time reads 10:20, and the majority's time will begin now. EXAMINATION BY MS. TOLAN: Q Thank you for appearing here today. We appreciate your assistance in this investigation. I'm going to go through a few background questions. Some might be repetitive from your opening statement, just so the record is clear. Where were you born? A Dallas, Texas. Q And what year were you born? A 1966. Q And can you briefly describe your professional career for the committee? A My professional career? Q Yes. A My first job? Q Yes. A My first job was when I was in fifth grade. I walked from my elementary school to a little preschool to help my mother teach dance to little girls that worked there -- not worked there -- went there. And then, in seventh grade, I believe, I started working for my father, who was an entrepreneur. He owned his own construction company. And my sister and I would stack bricks and scrape windows of the homes that he built. I also worked for Friday's as a hostess, and I taught dance when I was in 11th and 12th grade. During college, I worked at Chili's as a waitress. And then I moved to New Jersey, and I worked for my first husband in his office supply"
9237,11,16,Page 17,,,"company. It was a commercial office supply company. I was just a customer service rep. And then, after that, I worked for Nordstrom's. I sold men's clothing. And then, after that, I got the job with Mr. Epstein. Q And what year was that? A That was 2001. Q And when did your employment with Mr. Epstein end? A 2019. Q And were you working the same position that entire time? A Yes. Q Executive secretary. Is that correct? A Executive secretary. Q And were there any breaks in your employment, or was it all the way through from 2001 to 2019? A I mean, no official breaks, except for when I was pregnant; I definitely went on maternity leave for about 3 or 4 months. Q And are you currently employed? A I am not. Q Do you currently receive any income? A I do not. Q Tell me about the first time you interacted with Jeffrey Epstein. A That would be on the day I went for the interview. I first met, I believe, with Ms. Maxwell's assistant, , and then I met with Ms. Maxwell, and then I met with Mr. Epstein in his office, and he interviewed me. It was rather quick, maybe like 10 minutes. It was -- I sat in front of his desk, and I noticed that the phone kept ringing, and he would take the calls and speak briefly and then hang up and then speak with me again."
9238,11,17,Page 18,,,"Q And this was also in 2001; do you recall the month or the date on that? A I believe it was February, I believe. Q February 2001? A Uh-huh. Mr. Emmer. We've had another Member join. Can he please announce himself for the record? Mr. Biggs. Andy Biggs, Arizona-5. Ms. Brignac. Ms. Groff, who was ? Ms. Groff. Ms. Maxwell's assistant at the time. BY MS. TOLAN: Q And where did this interview take place again? A At 457 Madison Avenue. It was the Helmsley Palace. Q And how did you receive the opportunity to get this interview? A Right. So a headhunter had called me for a position at the New York Knicks, and he had found my resume on Monster.com. He had his own business. But, unfortunately, I couldn't get into the city when he wanted me to, and by the time I got in, the position for the New York Knicks was already taken. And, once he met me, he consulted with some other people in the office and came back to me and said, ""You know, we might have another position if you're interested. It would be working for one man who, you know, you would organize his life. He's a socialite. He's a businessman."" It sounded, you know, exciting. And he asked me, if I had time, that he would call this gentleman and see if I could actually go down for an interview that day. And, amazingly, he was available, and I actually walked up to the Helmsley Palace, and that was the interview. Q And you mentioned speaking with Mr. Epstein, and he was taking calls. What was he"
9239,11,18,Page 19,,,"like during the interview? A He was very businesslike, very -- I mean, just businesslike, professional. Q And what did he ask you during the interview? A Where I had worked before. So I let him know about the office supply company and Nordstrom's because those were my most recent jobs. He asked me if I, you know, was able to use a computer, if I've worked on a computer before, and, you know, could I type, you know, things along those lines. Q Do you recall any other discussions you may have had with him? A It's so long ago. I just think it was all very basic. Mr. Emmer. We've had another Member join. Can he please announce himself for the record? Mr. Lynch. Congressman Stephen Lynch from Massachusetts Eighth District. Mr. Emmer. Thank you. Mr. Lynch. Thank you for having me. BY MS. TOLAN: Q And did you also interview with Ghislaine Maxwell? A I did. Her first, yeah. Q What was she like during the interview? A She was professional, friendly, wanted to make sure kind of the same things, you know, had I -- could I use a computer or type; was I okay with fast-paced atmosphere; wanted to know my background, you know. Q Did you interview with anyone else besides Maxwell and Epstein? A I did speak with at the beginning, just a little bit, and it was probably more of the same. She probably just introduced herself to me and let me know a little bit about the office. Q And you said you became his assistant or executive secretary about a week later. Is that"
9240,11,19,Page 20,,,"correct? A Correct. Q And did he offer you employment? A I'm not sure if it was him or Ms. Maxwell who may have called. It was probably Ms. Maxwell. That seems to make more sense. Ms. Brignac. Was leaving the office? Ms. Groff. She -- she was not -- she left about a year later after I started. Is that what you -- Ms. Brignac. Yes. Thank you. BY MS. TOLAN: Q And you stated that your initial offer included a $50,000 salary. Is that correct? A That's correct. Q Were there any other benefits tied to this job offer, healthcare, housing, anything like that? A I believe healthcare was also offered, yes. Q Anything else? A Not at that time. Q And you mentioned this, I believe, in your opening statement, but when you were given the job initially, were you aware that you would be scheduling massages for Mr. Epstein? A Not at that initial first -- when I first spoke to him during the interview. But, after I started, yes, that was one of the things that was definitely spoken about, that a massage would be part of his day, and it was all treated very normally. Q And who told you that? A I believe it was Ms. Maxwell, probably . It was just known in the office. Ms. Brignac. And who was going to train you in how to schedule these massages? Were you"
9241,11,20,Page 21,,,"told at the beginning? Ms. Groff. Yes, I was told at the beginning. I'm sure it was and -- all of them probably. Everybody took a hand in helping me. You know, there was a lot to learn. It was, you know, very fast-paced, two phones on my desk. It was overwhelming. Ms. Brignac. Did you find anything about the massage scheduling to be odd when you first started? Ms. Groff. Absolutely not. It was just like another appointment. It was like going to the gym. It was -- it was very normal. Mr. Timmons. Did you schedule -- sorry. Did you ever schedule any of the other assistants for massages? Ms. Groff. No. Mr. Timmons. So everybody that you scheduled for a massage seemed like they possibly were a massage therapist? Ms. Groff. I believe that, yes. Mr. Timmons. Okay. BY MS. TOLAN: Q And what did you know about Mr. Epstein prior to meeting him? A Nothing. Nothing. I wasn't even told who I was going to meet with until I got there. Q Had you heard anything about him? A No. Q Did you do -- well, next question. Did you -- did anyone raise concerns about Mr. Epstein to you? A No, no. Q And what were your first impressions of Mr. Epstein? A That he was powerful, knew a lot of important people, professional, businesslike, super"
9242,11,21,Page 22,,,"busy, standoffish, you know. We didn't have conversations. It was just about business and what he wanted accomplished that day. It was not a friendly -- Q Did you immediately understand him to be a wealthy individual? A Oh, yes. Q Did you know how he acquired his money? A I didn't know how. I was -- believed that he was a money manager. Q How did you come to learn that? A I think it was just talked about in the office with all the other administrative staff. Ms. Brignac. So, when you accepted this job offer, what did you understand about his position? Ms. Groff. I believed he was a money manager, managed other people's money. Ms. Brignac. Was that told to you at the interview. Ms. Groff. I don't -- I assume it was, that I was told he was a money manager. BY MS. TOLAN: Q And how many clients did Mr. Epstein have during the period of your employment? A It's hard for me to say. I definitely know his biggest client was Les Wexner, and then he had some other clients as well. Q Can you name them? A Can I name them? I think it was Rothschild. You know, it was some other big names. He talked to Mort Zuckerman. I don't know if he was a client. Nothing is coming to mind, but there were definitely important people calling. Q Did you ever communicate directly with these clients? A Just answering a phone call and passing the phone call through to Mr. Epstein. Q And were they frequent visitors of Mr. Epstein?"
9243,11,22,Page 23,,,"A The businesspeople? Q Yes. A I wouldn't say frequent. Every so often. Q And did you ever conduct any work for any of those individuals? A No. Q We're going to go into more specifics later, but for now just some general questions. Can you briefly describe the extent of your relationship with Mr. Epstein? A Sure. I would say the relationship is hardly a relationship. It was very, very business, professional. I was not close to him whatsoever, and I do believe that's exactly the way he wanted it. Mr. Emmer. We've had another Member join. Can she please announce herself for the record? Ms. Ansari. Yassamin Ansari, Arizona's Third District. BY MS. BRIGNAC: Q The headhunter, could you tell us a bit more about how you came in contact with this person? A Of course. He called me because he saw my resume on Monster.com. He had his own firm, and I know his name was Russell. I can't remember his last name. But it was his own firm and said he called me in for the New York Knicks job, and I went into the city, met him. Q What was the name of his firm? A I don't recall. I don't recall. It was on Madison Avenue, I believe. And, you know, I'd come to -- Mr. Epstein or someone -- might have been Ms. Maxwell or -- somebody had hired his firm, Russell's firm to find a secretary. Q So were other employees of Epstein's procured from this firm? A I'm not sure."
9244,11,23,Page 24,,,"Q You likely worked in assisting to recruit other assistants and employees for Epstein. Did you use this firm? A I -- I actually did not. That was not under my heading. I never contacted any headhunter firms or was in charge of recruiting. I do recall interviewing some -- some women when he wanted -- I was actually thinking he wanted to replace me. But perhaps it was, you know, he just wanted another executive assistant. But that was one time. But I don't know where exactly -- what firm that came from. BY MS. TOLAN: Q And did you work for Mr. Epstein until he died in 2019? A No, not until he died. I actually resigned prior to that. Q Why? A It was time for me to resign and -- yeah. I discussed it with my, you know, family, and I wanted to leave. Q And what was the date of your resignation? A I don't know the exact date. I believe it was in July of 2019. Ms. Brignac. What was the reason you left? Ms. Groff. What was the reason I left? I -- I didn't understand what was going on, and I didn't want to be with him -- associated with him. I was, you know -- Ms. Brignac. What took place that brought those feelings of confusion? Ms. Groff. Well, he was arrested, and that was -- that was scary to me. I didn't -- I didn't like that. I didn't want to be associated with him. I didn't understand what was going on. BY MS. TOLAN: Q Did you have those same feelings after his first arrest in 2006? A That was a different time. He -- I actually -- he explained to me that he was being blackmailed, and this was all a big -- it was all false, and I believed him. And it appeared to me"
9245,11,24,Page 25,,,"everybody in the office felt the same way. He was very good at manipulating, very good liar. Now we can all see that. And, at the time, I actually felt sorry for him. I thought, wow, this must be really difficult to be a wealthy person and not know who you can trust because everybody just wants your money. So -- Q Did you ever doubt what he told you or ever think the allegations were true? A No, I did not. Mr. Timmons. He was arrested on July 6th of 2019. Did you resign before or after? Ms. Groff. After. Mr. Timmons. Just the week after you found out he was arrested and you resigned? Ms. Groff. That is correct. Yeah. BY MS. TOLAN: Q And then just a few more general questions. How often did you communicate with Mr. Epstein as his secretary? A Yes. Well, in the beginning, he was absolutely crazy. He did not have email. He would communicate with me -- probably every 15 minutes, he would call the office and, you know, give me directives on how he wanted to organize his day, and it was -- it was just a crazy, crazy time. It was hard to keep up. It was very challenging. But he would -- yeah. He would call every 15 minutes. Q And how often were you with him in person? A Not very often. He would come into the office -- if he was in New York City, he would come into the office for half a day. He really wasn't in the office that much. Q And did you ever have a romantic relationship with Mr. Epstein? A No. Q Did you ever have a sexual relationship with Mr. Epstein? A No."
9246,11,25,Page 26,,,"Q Did Mr. Epstein ever meet any of your family members? A He briefly met my husband when we were at a Mick Jagger concert, but it was literally one second. He said ""hello,"" and that was it. Q Anyone else? A No. Q When was the last time you communicated with Mr. Epstein? A It was probably sometime in July or -- of 2019. Q Do you remember the nature of those communications? A No. Q And when was the last time you saw him in person? A I don't recall exactly. It was maybe in June of 2019, but I don't recall. Q And then were you ever abused or assaulted by Jeffrey Epstein? A No. Ms. Brignac. What was his reaction when you resigned? Ms. Groff. I didn't speak to him. I told his attorney, Darren Indyke, that I was resigning. Ms. Tolan. How would you characterize your relationship with Ms. Maxwell? Ms. Groff. Purely professional. Just -- Mr. Higgins. Mr. Chairman, may I? I'm going to ask you a question. I'm going to have to leave in a few minutes. You're doing a very composed job. Thank you for being here. Ms. Groff. Thank you. Mr. Higgins. Regarding the massage therapist, you've explained your interaction regarding calling them and communicating and arranging. So I just have a couple of questions there. Ms. Groff. Of course. Mr. Higgins. Did the telephone system at the office have caller ID? Ms. Groff. I don't recall. I don't -- I don't recall. I don't think so."
9247,11,26,Page 27,,,"Mr. Higgins. Okay. Ms. Groff. I don't -- I don't know. It was so long ago. Was there caller ID? Mr. Higgins. Did you have any way of knowing when you called these ladies that you believed to be massage therapists, did you have any way of knowing that you were calling a massage company or business, or was it always a personal phone? Can you shed some light on that? Ms. Groff. I believe it was cell phones. Mr. Higgins. It was cell phones? Ms. Groff. Uh-huh. Mr. Higgins. So did the massage therapists ever introduce themselves? Did they -- did they ever come give a massage to Mr. Epstein at the office? Ms. Groff. Oh, never. No. Mr. Higgins. Okay. I'm just asking. I don't know. Ms. Groff. Yes. Mr. Higgins. Did you ever meet any of them in person? Ms. Groff. I did not. Mr. Higgins. And did you ever have a conversation with them about their equipment, like, how were they transporting their equipment, or did you presume that it was a business? Ms. Groff. I knew that they were to meet at his home, and I believe that he was -- he was equipped with what he needed. Mr. Higgins. I see. And was the massage therapy session timed? Did they say, ""I'm going to do this from 2:00 to 3:00 because I have another appointment at 4:00,"" or what? Ms. Groff. His day was very, very scheduled. Mr. Higgins. No. For the massage therapist. Ms. Groff. Yes. So they -- they would, you know, come for 30 minutes or whatever, you know, the time. It was -- it was usually short."
9248,11,27,Page 28,,,"Mr. Higgins. So was that a time schedule that you scheduled? Like, the window that they were going to be with Mr. Epstein -- Ms. Groff. Uh-huh. Mr. Higgins. -- or whomever, was it -- was there a window that you scheduled? Ms. Groff. Was it a window I scheduled? It was -- I don't know that I ever gave an exact, you know, time. But I knew that, if I was scheduling something else for him, say, someone was coming at 2:00 for a massage, and then I knew his next appointment was 2:30. Does that make sense? Mr. Higgins. Okay. And how were these massage therapists paid? Ms. Groff. I believe that he paid them. And there were sometimes when I would be asked to please ask our accounting department to send, say, $200 for -- in an envelope via messenger or picked up from his driver to be delivered to a masseuse. Mr. Higgins. And where would that be delivered to, an address provided to you? Ms. Groff. Correct. Mr. Higgins. Did you keep documentation of those addresses? Ms. Groff. I did not. Mr. Higgins. Okay. And where would the cash come from? Ms. Groff. in our accounting department had a petty cash box. Mr. Higgins. Okay. Final question about the massage therapists. Did it ever strike you as odd, ma'am, that, when you were calling a massage therapist, it was not a massage therapy business? Ms. Groff. No. I considered it, like, an independent contractor type of situation. Mr. Higgins. Okay. That's all my questions. Thank you. Mr. Biggs. Can I ask a question, too? Thank you. I just -- we've talked about a number of -- I want to know, was there a number of different massage therapists, or was it one or two, or the same one, or how was that?"
9249,11,28,Page 29,,,"Ms. Groff. It changed throughout, you know, the time. Sometimes it would be the same one, and then other times -- it was always directed by Mr. Epstein. Mr. Biggs. That's what I wanted to ask you. Where did you get the name and number? He provided those to you? Ms. Groff. That is correct. Yes. Mr. Biggs. And was this -- this was a daily occurrence? Ms. Groff. It could be. I'm sure there were days that there was no massage. Mr. Biggs. Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. Mr. Emmer. Just as a followup, were there days that he would receive multiple massages? Ms. Groff. I don't believe so. I've heard that, but I don't believe -- I don't recall booking multiple massages. I can say if -- if one person was not available, he might provide me a different name and phone number. But to me, it was one. Ms. Tolan. And you scheduled -- did you schedule all of Mr. Epstein's massage appointments, or were other individuals involved in this? Ms. Groff. I think other individuals were probably helping schedule as well. Ms. Tolan. Do you know who? Ms. Groff. It could have been Sarah Kellen at that time, maybe , , the administrative staff. Ms. Brignac. So what was your role in scheduling massages? Ms. Groff. I was his main secretary. So -- but, if I wasn't -- if I was sick or if I was not, you know, in the office for some reason, vacation. BY MS. TOLAN: Q Were you responsible for scheduling massages at a specific residence of his or anywhere?"
9250,11,29,Page 30,,,"A It was mostly his home in New York City. That's, you know, where I -- I would schedule. Q And did you ever schedule for his -- massages for his Palm Beach residence? A It's possible. Q Any of his other residences? A It's possible. Q And you've already touched on this a little bit, but how would you know who to schedule? A Mr. Epstein would direct me on who to call. BY MS. BRIGNAC: Q How? A Oh, he would call me. And, when he gave me his 20 pages worth of notes to schedule for the day, that would just be one of the things to schedule. Q Can you describe what it would say? A What he -- well, he would call me and rattle off everything that he wanted to happen that day in the morning, 9:00 a.m. sharp. And it would just be one of the -- you know, ""Schedule a meeting with, you know, Leon Black""; ""Schedule a meeting with Mort Zuckerman""; ""Here's the call list of, you know, 30 people I want to call today""; ""Make me a massage appointment with so-and-so""; and then, onward with, you know, ""Let's see if we can have a lunch with so-and-so,"" type of thing. Q Would he give you the contact information for the individual he wanted scheduled for a massage? A Yes. Q To include what information? A Name and phone number. Q And did you ever ask how he got this information? A No."
9251,11,30,Page 31,,,"BY MS. TOLAN: Q And then you would directly reach out to these women. Is that correct? A Correct, yes. Q Or sometimes they would reach out to you, I think you mentioned earlier? A That's correct. Q How frequently would they reach out to you? A How frequently? If he was in -- Mr. Bachner. Keep your voice up. Ms. Groff. Keep my voice up? I would say it happened, you know -- if he was in town and a masseuse knew, they might call, you know, once a week, twice a week to see if he would see them. Mr. Timmons. And quick question. So, pre-jail, it seemed that Ghislaine did a lot of the finding of the massage therapists and a lot of the coordination. After that, it was more structured, and there were different people that were finding of-age women all over the planet, Eastern Europe and whatnot. You have a number of emails where you're communicating with people to introduce very young but of-age girls to Mr. Epstein. Did you think that was strange, including photos of beautiful women, saying ""These are two people; I think you'd like them,"" and then you would facilitate the introduction? One, did that occur often? Ms. Groff. It did occur. Mr. Epstein always wanted to widen his -- his Rolodex of people. He always wanted to meet people, and it was not just when it came to women. When it came to men as well and the scientists and the professors, he oftentimes said, ""If you know someone that you think I would enjoy meeting and you think are smart, and I would -- please bring them along."" It was just kind of very what he did. He wanted to -- he was a -- Mr. Timmons. So it's not unusual for someone to email you and say, ""This is a 21-year-old"
9252,11,31,Page 32,,,"from Ukraine, and she's very beautiful; here are some photos; we think that Jeffrey would like her,"" and then she would send that email to you. And you would then take that email to Mr. Epstein and say, ""This person sent this,"" and you would say, ""Do you want to meet this person?"" That's normal? Ms. Groff. That's correct. He had -- he was involved with a lot of the modeling agencies, and he was just a connector. Mr. Timmons. Okay. In retrospect, the other seven or eight people that he referred to as assistants, you're aware that they are victims of sex trafficking and human trafficking? Ms. Groff. I'm aware that they're saying they're victims now. Mr. Timmons. Okay. I mean, they've been deemed victims by multiple Federal courts, mediations. They've received hundreds of millions of dollars of settlements. Mr. Whitcomb. Are you asking her awareness now, sir? Mr. Timmons. Yeah. Are you aware currently that that's the case? Ms. Groff. I am. I am. Mr. Timmons. Okay. In retrospect, do you think that all of these things kind of go together? I mean, he's got girls coming from Eastern Europe, and he's developing a system of control over eight people that worked for him, and you're the right hand of that control. Like, does -- Mr. Whitcomb. Just objection to the form. You can answer. Mr. Timmons. Did you control the credit cards of his eight assistants? Ms. Groff. No, I did not. Mr. Timmons. Did you have a PIN number for their apartments? Did you control their apartments? Ms. Groff. No, I did not. Mr. Timmons. Would you -- what if they said differently? Ms. Groff. I don't think they would. Mr. Timmons. Okay."
9253,11,32,Page 33,,,"Ms. Brignac. Ms. Groff, you answered a question about massages with the fact that he was well-connected to modeling agencies. Did he ever use models as masseuses? Ms. Groff. I don't know. Ms. Tolan. And can you estimate how many different masseuses Jeffrey Epstein used? Ms. Groff. I don't know. Mr. Biggs. Would you say it was more than a dozen different masseuses? Ms. Groff. I would say it was more than a dozen. Mr. Biggs. More than 20? Ms. Groff. Twenty, 30, over a time period. Mr. Biggs. What time period are you thinking? Ms. Groff. 2001 to 2007. Mr. Biggs. So, during that 6-year period, you think maybe somewhere between 20 and 30, or is it more likely more than 30? Ms. Groff. I -- that sounds right, but I really don't know. BY MS. BRIGNAC: Q And what informed your opinion that he was well-connected to modeling agencies? A Well, his biggest client was Les Wexner, and I knew that he was friendly with other business owners, Faith Kates of Next Modeling. Q But he was well-connected to lots of different influential people. Why do you, per se, he was well-connected to modeling agencies amongst very few others? What about the modeling agencies stands out to you? A When I first got hired, it just -- there was a lot of talk about modeling and modeling agencies and Les Wexner and that sort of thing, and I just -- it was -- it was just known around the office. Q Did you hear office gossip about how he would interact with these models?"
9254,11,33,Page 34,,,"A No. Ms. Tolan. The committee's reviewed multiple documents related to Jeffrey Epstein, including his phone directories. I will now introduce as majority exhibit 1. [Groff Majority Exhibit No. 1. was marked for identification.] Ms. Tolan. These are excerpts of Mr. Epstein's phone directories that the committee received from the estate of Jeffrey Epstein. These excerpts are labeled as massage lists with names or redacted names of individuals, cell phone numbers, and a description next to the name. Mr. Bachner. Before you ask a question, could I just have a quick -- Ms. Tolan. Yes. Take a moment. Mr. Bachner. Thank you. BY MS. TOLAN: Q Ms. Groff, have you seen these lists before? A This looks like the little black book that was a directory that was kept on -- you know, in the office and at his homes. Q Where all were they kept, all residences? A I believe all residences, yes. Q And you said in offices. In Mr. Epstein's office or in your office? A One was on my desk when I started, and I believe they were on the other administration's -- administrator assistants' desks as well. Q And, Ms. Groff, did you create these lists? A No. Q Do you know who did? A I believe it was Ms. Maxwell."
9255,11,34,Page 35,,,"Q Do you know how she created the list? A I do not. I think over time. Q And is this -- to the best of your recollection, is this what the list looked like when you began working for Mr. Epstein? A Yes. Q Did you add to, change, or remove any names from any of these lists? A I'm sure I added to the list. I don't think we ever took things out, but we added. Ms. Brignac. What would warrant adding someone to this black book? Ms. Groff. Anyone he met. If I was directed to put a phone number -- a name in and a phone number in, I would then put it in. I would actually put it into the computer system, not into the black book. I think the black book was printed from the directory that was on the computer system at the time. BY MS. TOLAN: Q So who else had authority to add or change names on the directory? A I think it would be anyone in the office. Q And you mentioned already, but did you use this list to schedule massage appointments for Mr. Epstein? A He directed me on who to schedule, so -- and usually it was a name and a phone number. Maybe if it was someone that he was -- he was hiring. For a while -- after a while, I got -- he didn't have to give me the phone number because I -- the phone number was in the directory. But he would -- yeah. Q So he would -- if he provided you a name, you would use the directory for the number? A Correct. Q And previously you mentioned that anyone else in the office would have had the ability"
9256,11,35,Page 36,,,"to change or access these lists. Is that correct? A Correct. Q Who were you referring to there? A It would be Ms. Maxwell, , . We had receptionists at the time, you know, a couple of different ones. , who was Darren Indyke's assistant, could add and subtract. Anybody who had access to the computer system should be able to add and subtract."
9257,11,36,Page 37,,,"[11:00 a.m.] BY MS. TOLAN: Q And Mr. Epstein, you said, would tell you names and numbers of who to call. Were there ever times when you would -- if he just said he wanted a massage, would you ever choose who to schedule? A No. Q And on the first page of this list, which is House Oversight Bates 400, there is a list of massage names specific to New York. A Uh-huh. Q And on the back of the page there is a list of names also specific to New York. These are labeled (a) and (b). Do you know why there is an (a) and (b) list for New York? A I do not. Q I know it's redacted, but do you know from your role if there's any difference in these two lists? A I do not. Q There is also a list of massage names specific to Florida. Do you know who is on that list? Do you know who created the list? A I do not. It was before I got there. Ms. Brignac. But you did add to the list, correct? Ms. Groff. Yes, I could have added to the list, but -- yeah, I don't -- yes, I added to the list at times, but this was -- the whole book was before I got there. It had already started. Ms. Brignac. Can you recall who you may have added? Ms. Groff. I don't know. BY MS. TOLAN:"
9258,11,37,Page 38,,,"Q And did you schedule from the Florida list specifically at any point? A It's possible that I scheduled for Florida, but I don't recall anything offhand. Nothing stands out. Q Same questions here. There is also a list, ""Massage - New Mexico."" Do you know who created that list? A I don't. I would think it would be Ms. Maxwell. Q And did you also use this list to schedule massages for Mr. Epstein in New Mexico? A It's possible. He didn't go there very often, but it's possible. Q Was there a list of masseuses specific to Paris, France? We know he had an apartment -- Mr. Epstein had an apartment there. Was there a list? A I don't know. Is there a list? Q There was not in anything we received, so just if you had knowledge of a list. A Oh. I don't recall a list. Q And then within this document, there is also a list specific to the U.K. Do you know why Mr. Epstein would have had a list of massage names specific to the U.K.? A I do not. Q Did he ever maintain a residence there? A In the U.K.? Q Yes. A Not that I'm aware of. Q Did he frequently travel there? A No. Ms. Brignac. So then what would the U.K. list be used for? Ms. Groff. I don't know. I guess if he went to the U.K. Ms. Brignac. Did you use it to schedule other people?"
9259,11,38,Page 39,,,"Ms. Groff. Oh, no, no, no. BY MS. TOLAN: Q And then same questions. There also appears to be a list specific to California. Did you use this list to schedule massages for Mr. Epstein in California? A I don't recall. Q Do you know why he had a list specific to California? A I do not. Q Did he ever maintain a residence in California? A Not that I'm aware of. Q And did he travel there often? A Not often. Q And then there does not appear to be one in this directory, but do you know of there being a list specific to the Virgin Islands? A I'm not aware of a list specific to the Virgin Islands. Q And next to -- you can see it next to the -- all of the list, there are parentheticals. A lot of them read redacted names friend, redacted names rmate, which we understand to be roommate, redacted pal, and even on page 5 one of the parentheticals reads GM, who we understand to be Ms. Maxwell, really likes. What was the purpose of these descriptors? A I don't know. I don't even recall descriptors. I really did not use this directory. I used what was on the computer system. It was much faster. BY MS. BRIGNAC: Q But, Ms. Groff, you had access to this book. A Uh-huh."
9260,11,39,Page 40,,,"Q Did you not find it odd that some of the masseuses were friends of other masseuses and not coworkers? A I did not. I guess I did not. I didn't think about it. Q In 20 years, you never asked: Why are we booking masseuses' friends to come give massages as well? Mr. Bachner. I don't -- respectfully -- I don't think you laid the foundation that she saw friends there. I think she said she used something in the other computer system. Mr. Whitcomb. Or that massages were happening for 20 years. Same objection. Ms. Brignac. Thank you. I'd still like for you to answer the question. Ms. Groff. About friends? I don't recall seeing these -- what did you call them? BY MS. TOLAN: Q Descriptors. A Descriptors? Yeah, I don't -- I didn't -- I don't recall seeing the descriptives or people talking about descriptives. I would just be given the directive. Q So these were not in the online database version? A Not that I recall. Q And so these were for Mr. Epstein's awareness rather than you -- A I don't know if they were for his awareness, Ms. Maxwell's awareness. I don't know whose awareness they were for. Q And you mentioned there is the online version of the directories. What database was that information stored on? Do you know? A I don't have independent knowledge or recollection of this, but I did read Sarah's testimony and it -- Mr. Bachner. Do you want her recollection or do you want to know what she read?"
9261,11,40,Page 41,,,"Ms. Tolan. Her recollection, if you know. Ms. Groff. Oh, I don't -- yeah, I don't -- I don't remember. BY MS. TOLAN: Q And do you know if any of that information was ever deleted during the first investigation into Mr. Epstein? A I do not. Q And do you know if it was deleted at any point? A I do not. Q Was this information ever switched to a different database? A We did switch over to Mac computers. Q Ms. Groff, I'm going to read you a list of names. For each name, please answer ""yes"" or ""no"" to the following question. And I will have follow-up questions for each person that you answer ""yes"" to. The question is, have you ever scheduled or arranged a massage at any of Jeffrey Epstein's properties for any of the following individuals? Frederic Fekkai? A No. Q Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, formerly Prince Andrew? A No. Q Harvey Weinstein? A No. Q Terje Larsen? A No. Q Tommy Mottola? A No."
9262,11,41,Page 42,,,"Q Jes Staley? A No. Q George Mitchell? A No. Q Henry Jarecki? A No. Q Eduardo Teodorani? A No. Q Leon Black? A No. Q Glenn Dubin? A No. Q Lapo Elkann? A I don't even know who that is. No. Q Tom Pritzker. A No. Q David Mitchell? A No. Q Did you ever schedule massages of any kind for any of these individuals? A No. Q Do you recall scheduling meetings of any kind for any of these individuals? A Meetings with Mr. Epstein, yes. BY MR. EMMER: Q Other than Mr. Epstein, did you ever schedule massages for any other individual? A I scheduled a massage appointment for Kathy Ruemmler at a spa. And I know he gave --"
9263,11,42,Page 43,,,"that's it, that I can recall. Q What did you understand Mr. Epstein's relationship to be with Kathy Ruemmler? A Professional. Business. Q Did you think it was weird that he directed you to schedule a massage for Ms. Ruemmler? A I did not. BY MS. TOLAN: Q And when you were scheduling massages, what information did you gather from the masseuses to schedule them? A Just if they could make it, make the appointment or not. Q Did you ever ask for their age? A No. Q Did you ever ask if they needed travel or car service? A No. Q Were all of the masseuses that you scheduled females? A No. He had -- I know of one man that he would schedule a massage with. Q How frequently? A Not that frequently. Ms. Brignac. Did anyone else besides Mr. Epstein give you contact information for masseuses? Ms. Groff. I think it was just him. BY MS. TOLAN: Q And did you ever see any of the masseuses in person? A No. Q Did anyone ever express concerns to you about their appearance or their age?"
9264,11,43,Page 44,,,"A No. Q Were all of the masseuses local to the area? A To New York? Q Uh-huh. A I believe so. Q What did you know about their background, where they came from? A Nothing. Q It never came up in conversation whether with them or another individual? A Never. Q Were you aware that many of them were coming from local high schools at the time? A No. Q Were their qualifications as masseuses ever reviewed? A No. Q By anyone. A I don't know. Q And where did the actual massages take place in the New York residence? A At his home. I don't know. Q Where specifically? What room? A The massage room. Q Can you describe that a little more? A I've never seen it. I don't know any -- I don't know about it. Q Did you maintain an office space within this New York residence at any point? A It was only after about 2013 that I ever stepped foot into his house. Prior to that, I was in offices elsewhere. BY MR. EMMER:"
9265,11,44,Page 45,,,"Q Just quick follow-ups. Did you have any role in preparing the massage room to be used? A No. Q Did you have any role in greeting masseuses when they visited the residence? A No. Q Were you ever present in the room when Mr. Epstein was receiving a massage? A No. Q I understand that Congressman Biggs has some questions. Mr. Biggs. Thank you. Thank you very much. I don't want this to be tedious, but I just really feel like we need to explore this. Recalling the database that you used to make calls to set these appointments, and looking at this list in this exhibit that you have before you now, do they seem at least similar to you? I mean, do you recognize some of the same names, numbers, et cetera? Ms. Groff. Most of them are redacted. Mr. Biggs. Most of the New York ones are redacted? Ms. Groff. Are redacted, right. I recognize Dawn as Dawn Wicks in Palm Beach. Mr. Biggs. Palm Beach. She's in Florida? Ms. Groff. Yes. Mr. Biggs. Any others? Ms. Groff. No. Mr. Biggs. Let's explore that for a second. Dawn W-R has three numbers and three descriptors by them. One is (b), one is (w), one is (h). I don't want to assume something, but what did those mean? Ms. Groff. I would think work, home. I don't know what (b) means. Mr. Biggs. Business perhaps?"
9266,11,45,Page 46,,,"Ms. Groff. Business. Mr. Biggs. Which raises this odd question. I mean, you had her home number, you had her work number and her business number. Did that strike you as odd that she had multiple -- apparently multiple -- Ms. Groff. Numbers? Mr. Biggs. -- phone numbers with multiple -- Ms. Groff. She -- Mr. Whitcomb. You've got to let him finish his question. Mr. Biggs. Yeah, through multiple places. You can go there. Ms. Groff. It did not strike me as strange. Dawn -- yeah. Mr. Biggs. Was she a regular of his? Ms. Groff. She had -- she and her husband had a medical spa. Her husband was a chiropractor. And I know Mr. Epstein went to her spa. Mr. Biggs. Let's go back to the front page, because this is something -- this is unredacted. And I don't know if you said that you made some -- maybe you made some appointments in California. Did I understand that right? Ms. Groff. It's possible. He didn't go to California very often. Mr. Biggs. Looking at the list, perhaps you looked at it then. As you go down that list, particularly in the second row there, second column, I should say, Gypsy has a phone number. Gypsy has a phone number. Another Gypsy has a phone number. Ms. Groff. Oh, yes. Mr. Biggs. Sports connection has a phone number. And then did -- looking at those then, did you see those then? Let's just clarify that. Ms. Groff. It's possible. Mr. Biggs. Would it strike you as odd that there's no name, it's just Gypsy?"
9267,11,46,Page 47,,,"Ms. Groff. Gypsy was the male masseuse. Mr. Biggs. There's multiple Gypsys on here. Ms. Groff. It was -- that was his name. That's what he called him. Mr. Biggs. Well, there's another one named and the descriptor there is '(one of gypsy)."" What does that mean? Ms. Groff. Oh, I don't know. Mr. Biggs. I mean, I don't want to suppose, but, I mean, there's some suppositions we could make. But that's -- you didn't find that curious."" Perhaps let's go to the U.K. massage list for a second. You have a number -- you've got some redactions there. What's not redacted is Los Angeles. What might that mean? Do you see that? It's the second column, I'm sorry, last one of the redacted in the ""Massage - U.K."" Ms. Groff. Oh, I don't know. Mr. Biggs. The one above it says Amsterdam. Ms. Groff. Uh-huh. I don't know. Mr. Biggs. Jean-Luc bim. Ms. Groff. Jean-Luc? Mr. Biggs. Do you know who Jean-Luc bim is? Ms. Groff. I don't know. Mr. Biggs. I'm going to stop there, but -- well, I'm not going to stop there. I'm going to ask another question, and then I'll stop, and that is, as you think back now, looking back now from this vantage point that you're in now, and you had a database on the computer, you have this black book that you had access to as well. Did any of this strike you as kind of odd, that Mr. Epstein was keeping literally -- by my count, well over 75 different discrete names in various massage columns from all over the world vis-à-vis"
9268,11,47,Page 48,,,"whatever he had in the database? Did it strike you as odd at all? Ms. Groff. Does it strike me as odd now? Mr. Biggs. Yeah, looking back. Ms. Groff. He had so many people in his realm and knew so many people. It doesn't strike me as odd that he has a lot of different people in his black book, in his directory. It's not surprising that he -- it just -- the width and the depth of the people he knew, this is one category, but I believe he had the same amount of people in other categories as well. Mr. Biggs. But in particular with the massage category, all over the world, that didn't strike you as odd? That, for instance, in California he maintained 26 -- the names of 26 different masseuses? Ms. Groff. I mean, he was a very wealthy man and he knew a lot of people. And when he went to -- any time he met anyone, it would be put them in the directory. It could be a passing. Mr. Biggs. He must have been a prolific massage receiver. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Emmer. We've had another Member of Congress join us. Can he please identify himself for the record? Mr. Perry. Representative Scott Perry, Pennsylvania's Tenth District. Mr. Emmer. We've also had additional staff members join since we started. Can they identify themselves for the record? Mr. . , senior advisor, Ranking Member Garcia. Ms. . , director of oversight and policy, Ranking Member Garcia. Mr. Emmer. Thank you. Ms. Tolan. Recognizing we only have a couple minutes left in our hour -- go ahead. Mr. Emmer. We've had another Member join. Can he please identify himself for the record? Mr. Walkinshaw. James Walkinshaw, 11th District, Virginia."
9269,11,48,Page 49,,,"BY MS. TOLAN: Q Recognizing we only have a little bit of time, I'm going to ask you a few quick questions. Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein have sexual contact of any kind with any other young woman or girl? A No. Q Did you ever witness Ms. Maxwell have sexual contact of any kind with any other young woman or girl? A No. Q Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein abuse or assault any young woman or girl? A No. Q Did any young woman or girl ever tell you that Mr. Epstein or anyone else abused or assaulted them? A No. Q Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein exploit any young women or girls? A No. Q Did you ever witness Ms. Maxwell exploit any young women or girls? A No. Q Did you ever witness any other individual, aside from Mr. Epstein, abuse or assault any young women or girls? A No. Q I'm going to ask you a list of names for the same question. Did you ever witness any of the following individuals abuse or assault any young women or girls? Frederic Fekkai? A No."
9270,11,49,Page 50,,,Q Philip Levine? A No. Q Les Wexner? A No. Q Leon Black? A No. Q Bill Gates? A No. Q Jes Staley? A No. Q Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor? A No. Q Harvey Weinstein? A No. Q Terje Larsen? A No. Q Tommy Mottola? A No. Q George Mitchell? A No. Q Henry Jarecki? A No. Q Eduardo Teodorani? A No. Q Glenn Dubin?