{"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_count": 21, "url": "https://epstein-data.com/EFTA00823659", "pdf_url": "https://epstein-data.com/pdf/EFTA00823659.pdf", "pages": [{"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 0, "text_content": "From: \"Jeffrey E.\" <jeevacation@grnail.com> \nTo: Ben Goertzel\nSubject: Re: MUSIC and MIND ... Fwd: quick question -- AGI-16 snacks and reception sponsorship? \nDate: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 14:08:16 +0000 \ngood try , but misses any biology, it is a shape in sound space , that needs to be coherent under cerain inherent \nconstraints. \nthe line theory and the haromic theory , relate to colors in paintings, it is in my words a \nrepresentation of a MOBJECT . my mental objects. , they have context shape projections and time. \nmore \nlater \nOn Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 10:02 AM, Ben Goertzel < \n> wrote: \nHah ... no, I haven't taken any drugs since April in Las Vegas ;) \nThis variety of music theory looks interesting (\"Westergaardian\"), but \nI haven't studied it deeply yet \nhttps://mathemusicalit wordpress.cornicategory/westergaardian-theory/\nIndeed a jingle has a great amount of emergent pattern involved --\nboth between its various sub-patterns, and between its sub-patterns \nand other patterns in the assumed musical history and context of the \nlistener ... \nJoscha and I look forward to seeing you Thursday, and yes, we will \nbring a few Al researcher friends along. \n-- Ben \nOn Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 6:26 PM, jeffrey E. <jeevacation@gmail.com> wrote: \n> you must be on drugs. .. . that being said , interesting views. but \n> again, lets start at what makes a tune or melody. it is a difficult \n> question. and my music friends say a jingle is one of the most \n> sohisticated of sounds. . immediatley pleasurable. \nbring up to 8 \n> others on thurs, i will have a blckboard. \n> On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 4:35 PM, Ben Goertzel < \nwrote: \n>> Looking forward to discussing AGI with you and a few others on the 21st \n;-) \n>> In the meantime, semi-relevantly, I thought some more about \n>> surprisingness, pattern, music, etc.... \n>> Musing about how musical psychology relates to the psychology of other \n>> human activities, I started musing about the role of unpredictable \n>> timing in sexual arousal ... \n>> I\n... [truncated, 2205 chars — for the full page use /api/corpus/document/EFTA00823659/0 or ?id=EFTA00823659&page=0]", "char_count": 2205}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 1, "text_content": ">> random variations in timing are desirable. That is, a specific \n>> pleasurable motion every 5 seconds is worse than the same pleasurable \n>> motion delivered with a MEAN interval of 5 seconds but random \n>> variation of, say, 2 seconds variance on either side. My suspicion is \n>> that this is true if the movements are delivered by a purely automated \n>> tool, but even more true if the movements are delivered by an agent \n>> that has emotions or is perceived to have emotions. \n» What is this all about? \n>> To understand this we have to understand that human pleasure has at \n>> least three aspects: \n» \n• \nRaw underlying pleasure \n>> • \nComparison of pleasure to immediately-past pleasure \n>> • \nComparison of pleasure to (e.g. cognitively) expected pleasure \n>> So, considering the scenario above (building arousal via the tension \n>> induced from random timing variations in pleasure), when the pleasure \n>> comes a few seconds early, then one is getting MORE THAN EXPECTED, \n>> right? That's pretty exciting! One expected to get goodies after 5 \n>> seconds, but instead one got them after 3 — woo hoo! As our \n>> excitement is often proportional to the difference between what's \n>> expected and what's obtained, getting goodies at 3 seconds when one \n>> only expected them at 5 seconds is GOOD — assuming that one is \n>> time-discounting reward, so that rewards occurring sooner are, by some \n» factor, better. \n>> But what about when the pleasure comes a few seconds later? Well, by \n>> the time 7 seconds have rolled around, one is feeling pretty eager and \n>> disappointed and frustrated. After all, the pleasure was supposed to \n>> come at 5 seconds, right?! But wait a moment — that makes it all the \n>> more pleasurable when it comes along after 7 seconds! The pleasure \n>> is not just delivering pleasure, it's delivering relief from \n>> frustration. Because we derive excitement from the contrast of what \n>> we get with what we HAVE, as well as from the contrast of what we get \n\n... [truncated, 2847 chars — for the full page use /api/corpus/document/EFTA00823659/1 or ?id=EFTA00823659&page=1]", "char_count": 2847}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 2, "text_content": ">> s0000 long that frustration builds up to the point where the pleasure \n>> doesn't release it when it finally comes — perhaps the delay is long \n>> enough to trigger some cognitive process thinking \"WTF is going on, is \n>> the pleasure ever gonna come again?\" \n>> 3 seconds or 5 seconds may be long enough for some anticipation to \n>> build and then get fulfilled. If the pleasure came after half a \n>> second the experience would basically be one of pleasure never \n>> stopping — which in a way would be more pleasurable, but in a way \n>> would be less pleasurable, because the process of building an \n>> expectation and then getting it fulfilled would not be there... and at \n>> the cognitive rather than purely physiological level, pleasure is \n>> largely about expectations and their fulfillment and disappointment... \n>> \n>> Now, human sexual arousal is not one-dimensional, there's not just one \n>> \"pleasure button\" being pushed at various intervals. Rather, there are \n>> various different tissues which are stimulated by different things, \n>> and which get pleased, roused to anticipation, and become frustrated \n>> upon neglect — with different time-scales. So what one has in a real \n>> situation of human sexual arousal is the above story, but on a variety \n>> of different tissues, each with their own characteristic time-scales. \n>> There is a sort of symphony of anticipation, fulfillment and \n>> frustration, as at any given time some tissues may be satisfied, some \n>> may be anticipating, and some may be frustrated.... \n>> And then of course, in human sexual arousal, there is also an overlay \n>> of more complex emotions besides pleasure and its expectation and \n>> frustration. When the other party seems eager and keeps getting \n>> ahead of what seems to be the natural rhythm, that may make one feel \n>> loved or at least desired; a lackluster or overly robotic rhythm may \n>> make one feel that the other party isn't really into it; etc. The \n>> arousal of these emotions is\n... [truncated, 3532 chars — for the full page use /api/corpus/document/EFTA00823659/2 or ?id=EFTA00823659&page=2]", "char_count": 3532}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 3, "text_content": "» another place. \n>> And this complexity brings us finally back to music. In music we \n>> have many complex patterns unfolding through time, each eliciting \n>> expectations regarding what will come next. The symmetries of musical \n>> scales and chords are instrumental in forming these expectations. \n>> When a chord pattern has been repeating, one expects it will continue. \n>> When a melodic line has been going up a certain scale, one expects it \n>> will continue. When a melodic line has been going up and down within \n>> a certain scale, one thinks it will stay within that scale. When two \n>> melodic patterns have occurred, each immediately followed by their \n>> inversions ... and then a third one occurs, one expects it will be \n>> immediately followed by its inversion. And so forth. \n>> So what we have in music is a collection of interlocking patterns, \n>> each giving rise to expectations. Each of these expectations may \n>> happen a little sooner or a little later than expected, thus causing \n>> extra bursts of pleasure in accordance with the basic logic of \n>> anticipation, frustration and pleasure. Making one pattern continue \n>> sooner or more intensely, will generally cause some other pattern to \n>> continue later or less intensely — thus weaving a complex web of \n>> fulfillments and frustrations, which reminds us of the complex webs of \n>> fulfillment and expectation in our inner and outer lives. \n>> A series of notes in time displaying an increasing amount of pattern, \n>> will often have the property of fulfilling an increasing number of the \n>> expectations elicited based on the previously occurring patterns. So \n>> on the whole it will give the feeling of increasing pleasure —\n>> increasing fulfillment of expectation. But of course it's hard for \n>> this to go on too long, because creating an increasing amount of \n>> pattern is difficult, assuming these patterns must have some \n>> emotionally evocative content in themselves, and that all the patterns \n>> are\n... [truncated, 3232 chars — for the full page use /api/corpus/document/EFTA00823659/3 or ?id=EFTA00823659&page=3]", "char_count": 3232}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 4, "text_content": "»> \n>> > You know Schmidhuber's theory of beauty as increase in compressibility? \n>> \n»> http://people.idsia.ch/-juergen/creativity html \n» > \n» > http://people.idsia.cht-juergen/sice2009.pdf\n» > \n>> > It's not quite right but it's insightful... a deviation from the norm \n>» that sounds awesome usually is one that causes some meaningful but \n>> > not-wholly-expected pattern to come about ... i.e. an increase in \n>> > compressibility ... \n» > \n>> > Actually I think an **increase in the number of compressing patterns** \n»> is perhaps more important than an increase in compressibility. \n»> \n» > \"Surprising fulfillment of expectations\" means: \n» > \n>» -- the previous expectation is fulfilled, i.e the previous compressing \n» > pattern continues \n»> \n>>> -- a new, surprising factor is found ... but probably one that also \n>> > leads to a new pattern in the overall perceived music, hence a \n»> new/different compressing pattern \n»> \n>> > So surprising fulfillment of expectations is one route to get to \n» > \"increase in the number of compressing patterns\" ... \n>>> \n>> > But music theory constrains the set of ways that one can get increase \n>> > in the number of compressing patterns, without getting too complex \n>> > (within the context of the 12-note scale... but if one used other \n>> > scales one would find similar mathematical structures) ... \n» > \n» > \n>> > \n>>> \n>> > About your other question: So far the recurrent neural nets, \n>> > convolutional neural nets etc. that have been used for language \n>> > generation based on corpus-based-training, tend to generate gibberish \n>> > that looks OK in the short run but nonsensical in the medium run. \n»> I.e. plausible looking phrases but meaningless/fucked-up long \n>> > sentences or paragraphs... \n»> \n>> >A game like Go or Atari games is quite different from natural language \n>> > because it's a closed system, so the scope of patterns that can occur \n>> > is much more limited than in the case of anything involved with real \n>> > \n... [truncated, 2547 chars — for the full page use /api/corpus/document/EFTA00823659/4 or ?id=EFTA00823659&page=4]", "char_count": 2547}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 5, "text_content": "»> \n>» part 1 is here \n» > \n>» https://anciv.org/abs/1401.3372 \n»> \n»> and part 2 is here \n» > \n>> > http://wiki.opencog.org/wikihome/index.php/Lojbanic_Relex2Logic\n>>> \n>> > ... but those documents are kind of insular, they're hard to \n>> > understand without a rich knowledge of how OpenCog NLP system \n>> > currently works... we can discuss F2F or on Skype sometime perhaps... \n» > \n>» -- Ben \n» > \n» > \n>>> On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 9:37 PM, jeffrey E. <jeevacation@gmail.com>\n>» wrote: \n»» \nsuprise is the the breaking of the expectation. . first we have to \n»» \nformularize the norm. \nwhy can a an adult immediatly here an \n>>» obvious \" \n»» \nwrong note \" in a mozart piece of thousands of notes. ? it is a spike \n>> >> on \n»» \nthe sphere .? . why are certain harmonics pleasing. \ni think it \n»» \nmight \n»» \ntake a lower energy to deconstruct into their fundamentals? \n»» \ndissocnace \n»» \ntakes so much energy like a key on glass scratch that it elicits \n»» \nphysical \n»» \nsigns of pain. \nnoam thinks that the ability to recoginze might \n>>» be an \n»» \nintegral part of development, ie not merely learned. . \n»» \n»» \ncan either deep mind , alpha go or any system like the ones set to \n»» \nplay \n»» \nvideo games on their own, be fed english language speakers and then \n»» \nbe \n»» \nable to construct simple sentences.? a deliverable that i have been \n»» \nasking you guys for , for years now. \nis learning the video game \n»» \ndifferent ? \nthanks \n»» \n»» \nOn Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 9:30 AM, Ben Goertzel < \n»»> \n>> >>> Sure... Meyer's \"surprising fulfillment of expectations\" is all about \n>> >>> time, right? But among the several questions is raises are \n»»> \n»>» -- what kinds of expectations are elicited? \n»»> \n»>» -- what constitutes surprise and why? \n»»> \n>> >>> The music theory elaborated in those papers explains what kinds of \n>> >>> expectations tend to be elicited in music ... which then conditions \n>> >>> what will be perceived as surprising and what will not... \n»»> \nwrote: \nEFTA0082\n... [truncated, 2005 chars — for the full page use /api/corpus/document/EFTA00823659/5 or ?id=EFTA00823659&page=5]", "char_count": 2005}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 6, "text_content": ">> >>> E.g. if a melodic line is operating with a certain scale for a while, \n>> >>> there will be an expectation that the next note is within that same \n>> >>> scale.... If the next note is not within that scale, but rather what \n>> >>> happens is a chord that gives rise to a note in the original scale as \n>> >>> a higher harmonic, then one may have a surprising fulfillment of \n>> >>> expectations of a mathematically explicable sort. But it may be that \n>> >>> playing this latter chord a little bit LATER than the beat that would \n>> >>> be expected via assumption of periodicity, gives the whole thing a bit \n>> >>> more oomph -- in this case one is fulfilling the expectation in a \n>> >>> temporally slightly surprising way ... but there's also the \"joke\" of \n>> >>> leaving the listener waiting a bit to see if the scale will be \n>> >>> continued or not, and then after the wait fulfilling it in a way that \n>> >>> is both more (more notes) and less (the expected scale is only there \n>> >>> in a higher harmonic) than expected.... There is a physiological \n>> >>> metaphor to how the \"heart misses a beat\" sometime... and an emotional \n>> >>> resonance with the feeling of waiting with bated breath to see what \n>> >>> will happen, and then finally something happens and it's richer than \n>> >>> expected so a bit overwhelming... \n»>» \n>> >>> That's a trivial example but it illustrates how the timing and the \n>> >>> static-music-theory and the emotion and body-references all play \n>> >>> together in the context of surprising fulfillment of expectations... \n»»> \n»»> \n»»> \n»»> \n»»> \n>> >>> On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 8:41 PM, jeffrey E. <jeevacation@gmail.com>\n»>» \nwrote: \n>> >>> > i think of it like points in space . the rythms are the disttance \n»»» \nbetween \n»»» \nthe points. and the melody is the projection on a plane. . music \n»» \nneeds \n>> >>> > recapitualtion . unless indian, your papers are more like work on \n» »» \nsoap \n»»» \nbubbles . shapes , but little timing. \n» »» \n>> >>>\n... [truncated, 2728 chars — for the full page use /api/corpus/document/EFTA00823659/6 or ?id=EFTA00823659&page=6]", "char_count": 2728}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 7, "text_content": "»>»» \nmyself. \n>> >>> >> Definitely it's true that the timing is critical, and the same \n>> »»> series of notes with different timing will sound totally different \n»>»» \nand \n»>»» \nhave a different feeling... \n» >» » \n»>»» \nHowever, nevertheless, the mathematical structures noted in those \n»>»» \npapers are important... \n» >» » \n»>»» \nHow timing interacts with these mathematical structures is one of \n»>»» \nmany \n>> »»> open questions, right? \n» >» » \n»>»» \nPut crudely, I think the algebra (as hinted in those papers) of a \n>> »»> series of notes identifies **what patterns are there** to be easily \n»>»» \nrecognized in the series of notes. But there are always gonna be \n» »>» too \n»>»» \nmany patterns there. The timing puts boundaries around some \n»>»» \npatterns \n»>»» \nand not others, thus narrowing down the scope of possible patterns \n»>»» \nin \n»>»» \nthe note-series, and identifying some rather than others.... And \n»>»» \nthe \n»>»» \ntiming also is what resonates with the dynamics of human emotions \n»>»» \nand \n»>»» \nhuman body-rhythms ... \n» >» » \n>> >>> >> so the subtlety of timing in music is partly that it has to serve \n»>»» \nmultiple functions \n» >» \n»>»» \n-- emphasizing certain ones, among the many patterns implicit \n»>»» \nmathematically in a series of notes \n» >» » \n»>»» \n-- resonating with human emotion and body rhythms \n» >» » \n»>»» \n... ben \n» >» » \n» >» » \n» >» » \n» >» » \n>> »»> On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 10:40 AM, jeffrey E. \n»>»» \ncjeevacation@gmail.com>\n»>»» \nwrote: \n>> »»» \n third paper same problem, bach was to have said playing piano \n» >» » > is \n»>»>» \neasy \n»>»>» \njust push the right note at the right TIME . \none without the \n>> >>> >> > other , \n» >» >» is \n»>»>» \nmeaningless. imagine a minute wait between any of the group \n» »»» \ntheory \n»>»>» \nrelevant notes. it woudl not be music \n» »»» \n»>»>» \nOn Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 10:26 PM, Ben Goertzel <MMEMII> \nEFTA00823666\n", "char_count": 1910}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 8, "text_content": ">>>>>>>> wrote: \n»>»»» \n>>>>>>>>> Just re-sending with a more appropriate subject line... \n• >,» \n>>>»»» \nHmmm... \n• >,» \n»>»>>>> I have been thinking a lot about music too, but from a different \n»>»»» \nperspective... \n»>>>>>» Do you know this paper on Combinatorial Music Theory? \n• >,» \n>>>»»» \npaper: \n» »»»> \nhttp://andrewdoncan.net/cmt/ \n»>»»» \n»>>>>>» video: \n»>>>>>» https://www.youtube.corn/watch?v=OMDtp89Xqlw\n»>»»>> \nIt's extremely good, it clarifies some basics of music theory in \n»»»»>a \n>>>»»» \nmathematical way without the confusing archaic terminology of \n>>>>>>>>> standard \n»>»>>>> music theory... and suggests various interesting new \n>>>>>>>>> directions... \n»>»»» \nThis paper is also related and somewhat worthwhile \n>>>»>>>> https://www.math.washington.edu/-morrow/336_09/papers/Ada.pdf\n• >,» \n>>>»»» \nthough neither as easy-to-read nor as interesting... \n• >,» \n»>>>>>» What these papers are getting as are the hidden \n»>»»» \nabstract-algebraic \n»>»»» \nand \n»>»»» \ninformation-theoretic structures underlying melody and \n>>>»»» \nharmony... \n• >,» \n>>>»»» \nWhat you're talking about regarding symphonies is sort of like \n>>>»»» \n\"narrative structure\" in stories it seems like -- or \"discourse \n»>»»» \nplanning\" in dialogue -- i.e. it's higher-level \n»>»»» \nThat level is important, for sure. But what the papers I've \n»>»»» \nlinked \n>>>»»» \nabove are getting at is a bit lower-level --- more analogous to \n»»»»>the \n>>>>>>>>> syntax and phrase/sentence level semantics of language, I would \n• >,» \n» say. \n»>»»>> \nThe algebra and information theory of melody and harmony have to \n»>>>>>» work \n>>>>>>>>> out at the level of individual chords and melodic passages, for \n»»»»>the \n»>»»» \nhigher-level development of a symphony or other complex work to \n»>>>>>» make \nEFTA00823667\n", "char_count": 1800}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 9, "text_content": "»>»»» \nsense... \n» >» » » \n» >» » » About \n» >» » » \n»>»»>» \nI mashed all of the four symphonies together , \n»>»»>» \nplaying recordings of the 3rd 5th 6th 7th all overlayed \n» >» » » > on \n»>»»>» \neach \n»>»»>» \nother, \n» >» » » \n»>»»» \nI have done stuff like that before, but not with classical \n»>»»» \nmusic... \n»>»»» \nwith my own recordings ;) .... Do you have a sound file of your \n>> »»»> \nexperiment? I'd be curious to hear... \n» >» » » \n»>»»» \nInterestingly, the \"plumbing\" work we've been doing to connect \n>> >>> >> » OpenCog \n»>»»» \nto the Hanson robots would also enable us to use OpenCog for \n»>»»» \nmusic \n>> »»»> \ncomposition / improvisation experimentation ... (i.e. we've been \n>> »»»> \ndealing with real-time input and output, which we hadn't been \n>> »»»> \ndoing \n»>»»» \nbefore) \n» >» » » \n»>»»» \nBut at the moment (this opinion is of course subject to \n>> >>> >> >> revision) I \n>> »»»> \nsomewhat feel that the basic problem of \"what makes a melody \n»>»»» \n/harmony \n»>»»>> \n/ rhythm pattern sound emotionally and cognitively appealing\" \n»>»»» \nhas to \n>> »»»> \nbe solved before one moves on to issues of symphonic \n>> >>> >> >> structure.... \n»>»»» \nI.e., we probably gotta solve folk music before we can solve \n»>»»» \nBeethoven \n>> >>> >> >> or Bartok ... \n» >» » » \n»>»»» \nMeyer's old theory of \"surprising fulfillment of expectations\" \n» >» » » \n» >» » » \n» >» » » \n» >» » » \n» >» » » \n>> >>> >> >> http://rhythmcoglab.coursepress.yale.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2014/10/Emotion-and-\nMeaning-in-Music.pdf\n» >» » » \n»>»»» \nis basically correct IMO (if you don't know that book check it \n»>»»» \nout, \n»>»»» \nyou'll love his classical music examples) ... but the subtle \n»>»»» \npoint \n»>»»» \nis \n»>»»» \nthat the expectations and the surprise we experience are a \n>> »»»> \nsubtle \n»>»»» \nmix \n»>»»» \nof \nEFTA00823668\n", "char_count": 1839}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 10, "text_content": "» >» » » \n»>»»» \n-- basic mathematical music-structure factors, as in the vein of \n» >» » » the \n»>»»» \ntwo papers I linked above \n» >» » » \n»>»»» \n-- human psychology factors as modeled e.g. in Joscha's work and \n»>»»» \nin \n»>»»» \nthe Component Process Model ( \n» >» » » \n» >» » » \n» >» » » \n» >» » » \n>> >>> >> >> http://boccignone.di.unimi.it/CompAff2015_files/Phil.%20Trans.%20R.%20Soc.%20B-2009-\nScherer-3459-74.pdfl\n»>»»>> \nwhich we have introduced into the OpenCog / Hanson Robot \n>> >>> >> >> codebase to \n»>»»» \nfill in certain gaps in Psi \n» >» » » \n»>»»» \n-- human body-rhythm patterns, to do with the way the rhythms of \n>> >>> >> >> different subsystems of our physical bodies overlay on each \n>> >>> >> >> other, \n»>»»» \nwhich we perceive all the time sub and semi consciously and \n»>»»» \nwhich \n»>»»» \ninfluence our perception of music; obviously even classical \n»>»»» \nmusic \n»>»»» \nwithout a drumbeat is highly rhythmic... \n» >» » » \n»>»»» \n-- more abstract cognitive pattern recognition \n» >» » » \n>> »»»> \nSo a good melody packs up \"surprising fulfillment of \n>> >>> >> >> expectations\" \n»>»»>> \nwhere the expectation and fulfillment are assessed according to \n» >» » » a \n>> >>> >> >> combination of the above 4 factors ... and if you leave any of \n» >» » » the \n»>»»» \nabove 4 factors out you're going to get lots of \"false \n»>»»» \npositives\" \n» >» » » \n» >» » » \n» >» » » All of the above factors are there in Chinese, African etc. \n»>»»» \nmusic as \n»>»»>> \nwell as Western music, but manifested in different ways... \n» >» » » \n»>»»» \nI can pretty clearly see how to seriously investigate the above \n»>»»» \nbut \n» >» » » I \n>> »»»> \ncan't at the moment see a \"quick and dirty\" way to make huge \n»>»»» \nprogress \n»>»»» \nquickly ... while seemingly simple, the question of \"what makes \n» >» » » a \n»>»»» \nmelody appealing\" actually wraps up a lot of issues ... BODY, \n»>»»» \nEMOTION, COGNITION ... plus MATH-OF-MUSIC ... \n» >» » » \n»>»»» \nFascinating stuff though ;) \nEFTA00823669\n... [truncated, 2001 chars — for the full page use /api/corpus/document/EFTA00823659/10 or ?id=EFTA00823659&page=10]", "char_count": 2001}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 11, "text_content": ">> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \nIf you want to design a research programme in this direction I'd \nbe \ngame to participate; I don't want to drop my other OpenCog R&D \nobviously but music just fascinates me at a heart as well as \nhead \nlevel, so I'd be willing to put some time into this in parallel \nwith \nmaking the Hanson robots work... I do have a feeling that to \nreally \ncrack the problem of what makes a melody sound good, one has to \ncrack \nthe problem of how feeling and body and cognition work together, \nwhich \nis a key problem for AGI generally speaking... \n-- Ben \nP. S. \nOf course, complex development of themes and counter and sub \nthemes \nand so forth is not exclusive to Western classical music.... \nFor \ninstance this 30 minute instrumental-rock song composed by \nBuckethead \nin memoriam for his mother has incredible subtlety of \ndevelopment \nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5PXYehriYY \n... so many themes introduced in the first half and then \ncomplexly, \ngenetically crossed over and synergized in the second half.. It \nis \nmy \nfirm conviction that Buckethead will be remembered as the \nBeethoven \nof \nthe early 21st century ;) \nFor me the ultimate is Prometheus, by Scriabin, though... \nhttps://www.youtube.corn/watch?v=5GEwho6Dbnc \ndo you know it? Wow.... This is cognitive and emotional \ndevelopment \nbeyond the ordinary human level, such as only a true genius \nmadman \ncould produce. I had an amazing mental experience in San \nFrancisco \nin 2012 listening to Prometheus 10 times in succession ... try \nit \nsometime... \nEFT\n... [truncated, 2010 chars — for the full page use /api/corpus/document/EFTA00823659/11 or ?id=EFTA00823659&page=11]", "char_count": 2010}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 12, "text_content": ">>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \n>>>>>>>>> \nOn Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 9:39 AM, jeffrey E. \nleevacation@gmail.com>\nwrote: \n> looking for Al and music. . a melody is a strange object, \n> it \n> is \n> an \n> inter \n> as well as intra relation with notes and time. . there are \n> inherent \n> harmonies. and dissonance.. what i wrote to chonsky this \n> moring \n> today I conducted an experiment encouraged by Noam's wholly \n> justified \n> aggressive and detailed directives to joscha. . joshcha \n> focused \n> on \n> layers \n> being developed in the brain . the timing for the development \n> of \n> each \n> layer \n> being different per species . \n> I postulate that music might be a frosted window into that \n> structure. \n> symphonies begin with their first \" layer \" a theme. in fact \n> , \n> there \n> might be more than one theme in the first layer „ the \n> second \n> part \n> of \n> symphonic form is the complex development stage. where \n> those \n> themes \n> are inverted, deconstructed , reconstructed etc ,and the \n> development \n> stage \n> takes the most time . in the conclusion of the symphonic \n» »»»» \nform \n» »»»» \nthe \n>>>>>>>>>> recapitulation of all that has come before it forms a \" \n»>»»>» \nphenenoma \n» »»»» \nof \n» »»»» \nthe \n»>»»>» \npiece \" a whole ,made up of its smaller concepts . As \n>> »»»» \nopposed \n» »»»» \nto \n»>»»>» \nlistening to music to record which neuron is firing, as most \n»>»»>» \nmusciolgists \n»>»»>» \nattempt . I propose that the music may be the audible \nEFTA00823671\n", "char_count": 1909}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 13, "text_content": ">> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n»»»>\n>>\n \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n> result of \n> those \n> neurons firing, made possible by a select few who would \n> attempt \n> to \n> notate \n> those neuronal firings. Beethoven for example. \n> The experiment . I mashed all of the four symphonies \n> together \n> , \n> playing recordings of the 3rd 5th 6th 7th all overlayed \n> on \n> each \n> other, \n> playing at the same time. - the way a brain might develop. \n>I \n> expected \n> an \n> ordered noise but to the surprising contrary , \nIT WAS \n> AMAZING. \n>. \n> you can hear new \"concepts \" forming, \n> il wonder whether in the mind of a blind child , the \" music\" \n> would \n>be \n> created even without the visual referencial. but created \n> none \n> the \n> less. \n> later when the visual can be tied to concepts , the anatomy \n> may \n>be \n> hijacked \n> to produce sounds . that somehow relate to the concepts. . \n> I tried to mix music from different cultures- it didn't work. \n> African \n> does not work with western europe,- chinese works with \n> neither of \n> the \n> other \n> two. but within the same cultural music ( the brain of the \n> local \n> species \n> ) the mash ups are beautiful. \n> I would note that computers engage in \"parallel processing\" \n> only \n> in \n> order \n> to take a hard problem and break it into its component parts \nEFTA00823672\n", "char_count": 1754}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 14, "text_content": "»>»»>» \nworking \n»>»»»> \non \n>> »»»» \neach component separately,  here each problem Interacts \n»>»»>» \nand \n»>»»>» \nthe \n»>»»>» \ntheir \n»>»»»> \nresolutions interact in remarkable ways. \n»>»»»> \n--\n»>»»»> \n>> >>> >> >> > On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 9:37 PM, Ben Goertzel \n»>»»>» \n»>»»»> \nwrote: \n» >» » » » \n»>»»»» \n(i.e. being a \"fiscal sponsor\" for the HLAUAGI conference is \n»>»»»» \nwithin \n»>»»»» \nHumanity-Ps mandate as a 501(c)3, so there's no problem \n»>»»»» \nhere...) \n»>»»»» \n>> »»»»> \nOn Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Ben Goertzel \n»>»»»» \n»>»»»» \nwrote: \n>> >>> >> >> >> > We can route the donation through Humanity+, which is a \n»>»»»>» \n501(c)3 \n» >» » » » > \n»>»»»>» \nas \n»>»»»>» \nwe have done with some of your previous donations for my \n»>»»»>» \nresearch... \n» >» » » » > \n>> >>> >> >> >» On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 9:33 AM, jeffrey E. \n»>»»»>» \n<jeevacation@gmail.com>\n»>»»»>» \nwrote: \n>> >>> >> >> >> >> is it a 501 c 3 \n» >» » » » » \n>> »»»»»> \nOn Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 9:30 PM, Ben Goertzel \n» >» » » » » \n»>»»»» \n» wrote: \n» >» » » » >» \n»>»»»» \n>» Hey there, \n» >» » » » >» \n>> »»»»»» \nHope you're well... \n» >» » » » >» \n>> >>> >> >> >> >>> I'll send you another email about connecting this summer \n»>»»»»>» \nwhile \n»>»»»» \n>» I'm \n»>»»»» \n>» in \n>> >>> >> >> >> >>> the US if you'll be around... \n» >» » » » >» \n>> >>> >> >> >> >» This email pertains to the AGI-16 / Human-Level AI \n»>»>> >> >> >» conference \n»>»»»» \n>» which \n>> >>> >> >> >> >» occurs upcoming week in New York (July 16-19).... at the \n»>»»»» \n>» New \n>> »»»»»» \nSchool. \n» >» » » » >» \nEFTA00823673\n", "char_count": 1584}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 15, "text_content": ">> »»»»»» \nWe are doing the last-minute nitty-gritty conference \n»>»»»»>» \nplanning \n»>»»»»>» \nand \n»>»»»» \n>» find \n>> >>> >> >> >> >>> ourselves short on cash for snacks and for drinks at the \n>> >>> >> >> >> >» conference \n>> >>> >> >> >> >>> reception / poster-session ... (the New School venue \n»>»»»» \n>» proved \n»>»»»» \n>» more \n>> »»»»»» \ncostly than planned... we chose New School as an old \n»>»»»»>» \ncollege \n»>»»»» \n>» friend \n» >» » » » >>> of \n>> >>> >> >> >> >» mine is a prof and administrator there...) \n» >» » » » >» \n>> »»»»»» \nSo I'm wondering if you might be willing to do a US$3000 \n>> »»»»»» \nsponsorship \n>> »»»»»» \n(we have two other sponsors at the US$3000 level: \n>> >>> >> >> >> >» Vicarious \n»>»»»» \n>» Systems, \n>> >>> >> >> >> >>> and Demiurge Technologies).... (We don't actually need \n»>»»»» \n>» the \n» >» » » » >» $$ \n»>»»»» \n>» wired \n>> »»»»»» \nimmediately, a commitment is enough)... \n» >» » » » >» \n>> »»»»»» \nWe can then serve everyone \"drinks and snacks courtesy of \n»>»»»» \n>» Jeffrey \n>> >>> >> >> >> >>> Epstein Foundation\", or whatever foundation name you \n»>»»»» \n>» prefer \n»>»»»»>» \n(or \n»>»»»»>» \njust \n>> >>> >> >> >> >» keep it quiet if you prefer) \n» >» » » » >» \n>> >>> >> >> >> >» This is not insanely critical, but it would be a help... \n» >» » » » >» I \n»»»»»»\n»\n \n believe \n>> »»»»»» \nthese conferences are still quite valuable in terms of \n»>»»»» \n>» keeping \n» »»»»»» \nfree \n>>>>>>>>>>> >>> and open dialogue about AGI going in the research \n»>»»»»>» \ncommunity, \n» >» » » » >» as \n>> >>> >> >> >> >» opposed to having AGI work entirely sucked into the \n»>»»»» \n>» proprietary \n»>»»»» \n>» halls \n>> >>> >> >> >> >>> of big companies... \n» >» » » » >» \n»>»»»»>» \nthanks \n»>»»»»>» \nBen \n» >» » » » >» \n» >» » » » >» \n» >» » » » >» \n>> »»»»»» \nBen Goertzel, PhD \nEFTA00823674\n", "char_count": 1831}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 16, "text_content": ">> >>> >> >> >> >» http://goertzel.org \n» >» » » » \n>> >>> >> >> >> >» Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the \n>> »»»»»» \nGlobal \n»>»»»» \n>» Brain \n» >» » » » >» is \n>> »»»»»» \ncurrently struggling to form... \n» >» » » » » \n» >» » » » » \n» >» » » » » \n» >» » » » \n» >» » » » » --\n» >» » » » » \nplease note \n>> »»»»»> \nThe information contained in this communication is \n>> »»»»»> \nconfidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may \n>> »»»»»> \nconstitute inside information, and is intended only for \n>> >>> >> >> >> » the use of the addressee. It is the property of \n» >» » » » » JEE \n>> »»»»»> \nUnauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this \n>> >>> >> >> >> » communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited \n>> »»»»>» \n and may be unlawful. If you have received this \n>> »»»»»> \ncommunication in error, please notify us immediately by \n>> »»»»»> \nreturn e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.com, and \n>> »»»»»> \ndestroy this communication and all copies thereof, \n>> »»»»»> \nincluding all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved \n>> »»»»» \n>> »»»»» \n>> »»»»» \n>> »»»»» \n --\n>> »»»»» \nBen Goertzel, PhD \n»>»»»>» \nhttp://goertzel.org \n» >» » » » > \n>> »»»»» \nSuper-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the \n>> »»»»» \nGlobal \n»>»»»>» \nBrain \n» >» » » >» is \n>> >>> >> >> >> > currently struggling to form... \n» >» » » » \n» >» » » » \n» >» » » » \n» >» » » » --\n»>»»»» \nBen Goertzel, PhD \n»>»»»» \nhttp://goenzel.org \n» >» » » » \n>> »»»»> \nSuper-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global \n»>»»»» \nBrain \n»>»»»» \nis \n>> >>> >> >> >> currently struggling to form... \n» >» » » > \n» >» » » > \n» >» » » > \n» >» » » > \n» >» » » > --\n» >» » » > \nplease note \nEFTA00823675\n", "char_count": 1720}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 17, "text_content": ">> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»»> \n>> »»» \n>> »»» \n>> »»» \n>> »»» \n>> >>> >> > - \n>> »»» \n>> »»» \n>> >>> >> > c \n>> >>> » > c \n» »»» \n» >» >» J \n» »»» \n» \n» \n» \n> The information contained in this communication is \n> confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may \n> constitute inside information, and is intended only for \n> the use of the addressee. It is the property of \n> JEE \n> Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this \n> communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited \n> and may be unlawful. If you have received this \n> communication in error, please notify us immediately by \n> return e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.com, and \n> destroy this communication and all copies thereof, \n> including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved \nBen Goertzel, PhD \nhttp://goertzel.org \nSuper-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global \nBrain \nis \ncurrently struggling to form... \nBen Goertzel, PhD \nhttp://goertzel.org \nSuper-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global \nBrain \nis \ncurrently struggling to form... \nplease note \nThe information contained in this communication is \nonfidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may \nonstitute inside information, and is intended only for \nthe use of the addressee. It is the property of \nEE \nUnauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this \n>» » > ommunication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited \n>» » > a nd may be unlawful. If you have received this \n>» » > ommunication in error, please notify us immediately by \n» »»» \n» >» >» d \n» >» >» i \n» >» » \n» >» » \n» >» » \nreturn e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.com, and \nestroy this communication and all copies thereof, \nncluding all attachments. copyright -all\n... [truncated, 2031 chars — for the full page use /api/corpus/document/EFTA00823659/17 or ?id=EFTA00823659&page=17]", "char_count": 2031}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 18, "text_content": "» >» » --\n»>»» \nBen Goertzel, PhD \n»>»» \nhttp://goertzel.org \n» >» » \n>> »»> \nSuper-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global Brain \n» >» » is \n>> »»> \ncurrently struggling to form... \n» »» \n» »» \n» »» \n» »» \n» >» > --\n» »» \nplease note \n>> >>> > The information contained in this communication is \n>> >>> > confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may \n>> >>> > constitute inside information, and is intended only for \n»»» \nthe use of the addressee. It is the property of \n>> >>» JEE \n>> >>> > Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this \n>> >>> > communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited \n»»» \nand may be unlawful. If you have received this \n>> >>> > communication in error, please notify us immediately by \n>> >>> > return e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.com, and \n>> >>> > destroy this communication and all copies thereof, \n»»» \nincluding all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved \n»»> \n»»> \n»»> \n» >» --\n»>» \nBen Goertzel, PhD \n»>» \nhttp://goertzel.org \n»»> \n>> >>> Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global Brain is \n>> >>> currently struggling to form... \n»» \n»» \n»» \n»» \n»» \n--\n»» \nplease note \n»» \nThe information contained in this communication is \n»» \nconfidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may \n»» \nconstitute inside information, and is intended only for \n>>» the use of the addressee. It is the property of \n>> » JEE \n»» \nUnauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this \n»» \ncommunication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited \n»» \nand may be unlawful. If you have received this \n»» \ncommunication in error, please notify us immediately by \n»» \nreturn e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.com, and \n»» \ndestroy this communication and all copies thereof, \n»» \nincluding all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved \n>>> \n>>> \nEFTA00823677\n", "char_count": 1851}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 19, "text_content": "»> \n» > --\n>» Ben Goertzel, PhD \n>» http://goertzel.org\n»> \n>>> Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global Brain is \n>>> currently struggling to form... \n» --\n» Ben Goertzel, PhD \n» http://goertzel.org\n>> \n>> Super-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global Brain is \n>> currently struggling to form... \n> --\n> \nplease note \n> The information contained in this communication is \n> confidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may \n> constitute inside information, and is intended only for \n> the use of the addressee. It is the property of \n> JEE \n> Unauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this \n> communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited \n> and may be unlawful. If you have received this \n> communication in error, please notify us immediately by \n> return e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.com, and \n> destroy this communication and all copies thereof, \n> including all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved \nBen Goertzel, PhD \nhttp://goertzel.org\nSuper-benevolent super-intelligence is the thought the Global Brain is \ncurrently struggling to form... \nplease note \nThe information contained in this communication is \nconfidential, may be attorney-client privileged, may \nconstitute inside information, and is intended only for \nthe use of the addressee. It is the property of \nJEE \nUnauthorized use, disclosure or copying of this \nEFTA00823678\n", "char_count": 1415}, {"efta_number": "EFTA00823659", "page_number": 20, "text_content": "communication or any part thereof is strictly prohibited \nand may be unlawful. If you have received this \ncommunication in error, please notify us immediately by \nreturn e-mail or by e-mail to jeevacation@gmail.com, and \ndestroy this communication and all copies thereof, \nincluding all attachments. copyright -all rights reserved \nEFTA00823679\n", "char_count": 345}]}