138 H3vlgiu2 1 the central issues, of course, in the case. One of the things 2 that was called an obvious lie. And so we want to bring in the 3 co-conspirators and ask them, Ms. Giuffre says you were ina 4 conspiracy and what's your side of the story on that? And they 5 take the Fifth. So there we are. The question is, are we 6 going to conceal that from the jury or are we going to present 7 it to them? Well, the Second Circuit case that your Honor is 8 well familiar with, LiButti, sets out the factors that have 9 determined that issue, and one of the things we hear from the 10 defendant is, oh, it's never been applied in a case like this. 1a I would just direct your attention, as I did during the Epstein 12 argument, to the case of FDIC v. Fidelity & Deposit Co. of 13 Maryland. That's a Fifth Circuit case from 1995, in which a 14 bank officer was accused of dishonest and fraudulent acts and 15 kind of bogus loans, and the Fifth Circuit allowed Fifth 16 Amendment invocations from the loan recipients to be used if, against him, reasoning that, well, in this kind of a case, the 18 collusion then is shown by the Fifth Amendment invocation of 19 the participants in the conspiracy there. Fifth Amendment 20 invocations can be held against someone who's accused to be a 21 part of that conspiracy, which of course is exactly what we 22 have going on here in a civil context. 23 LiButti, by the way, the Second Circuit case, which is 24 controlling in this jurisdiction, favorably cites the Fifth 25 Circuit case in FDIC v. Fidelity & Deposit Co., explaining that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 HOUSE_OVERSIGHT_011441